Bunker Buster & Base Buster

[Olrox]

Zarel mentioned that a "T3 Bunker Buster" would be useful, I think of it as a hit-and-run weapon. High damage to structures, nice range, low ROF, good accuracy, low HP... Sort of

Thiking about that, I've decided to make a model, and post it here so we can talk about it and improve it before it gets into the game - if it is really going to.

I'm going to call it "Base Buster", which I think that fits the weapon's role and origins perfectly. :rolleyes:

As I made it like an upgrade from the Base Buster, I've made both models, for them to look similar. In textures, Bunker Buster will look just like it is, while Base Buster will show similar colors to the SRMA (Seraph Missile Array) and Archangel.

Please comment, and better solutions are welcome!

[Kacen]

I recall 1.12 had a T3 bunker buster, forgot what it was called.

Wouldn't hurt to add a T3 bunker buster to WZ Resurrection.

[Zarel]

What are those, 7-gons? Hexagons are plenty enough.

I think we can cut down on the number of vertices in the mount by a bit, too.

Other than that, they look good. Now I just need to think about the stats for Base Buster.

Damage 720, ROF 3. Splash 240 in 1 tile radius?

The other problem is that Base Buster would supersede the niche I made for Seraph Missile.

[Kacen]

The other problem is that Base Buster would supersede the niche I made for Seraph Missile.

It can still be used in fast attacks against vehicles fairly well, and fire over vehicles and defenses to strike specific targets with the reaction time of a direct fire weapon.

[guciomir]

As far as i remember Bunker Buster has no upgrades. Maybe adding them (they would be available in T3) would be a better idea than adding new turret?

[Olrox]

What are those, 7-gons? Hexagons are plenty enough.

I think we can cut down on the number of vertices in the mount by a bit, too.

Yeah, those are heptagons - I didn't know if hexagons would look ok since it's a big barrel. The reduction on the number of vertices will be very easy later, AutoCAD sucks for editing 3d surfaces.

Now I just need to think about the stats for Base Buster.

Damage 720, ROF 3. Splash 240 in 1 tile radius?

The other problem is that Base Buster would supersede the niche I made for Seraph Missile.

I think that this is good. Seraph fires a volley, like Archangel, doesn't it?

In addition, I think that Base Buster must be really bad for shooting at moving targets. Should be made into something really specialized at firing at buildings, and very bad for shooting at fast targets. Or something other that makes it kind of a spin-off from the category. I think that, this way, Seraph wouldn't be made too much obsolete.

As far as i remember Bunker Buster has no upgrades. Maybe adding them (they would be available in T3) would be a better idea than adding new turret?

Only upgrading it should make it look too similar to Scourge or Tank Killer (by what I see from their statistics)

[Zarel]

It can still be used in fast attacks against vehicles fairly well, and fire over vehicles and defenses to strike specific targets with the reaction time of a direct fire weapon.

Seraph is an artillery weapon, so it does rather poorly against vehicles. Firing over enemies very rarely comes in handy.

As far as i remember Bunker Buster has no upgrades. Maybe adding them (they would be available in T3) would be a better idea than adding new turret?

BB takes rocket upgrades (they look like lancers). Base Buster would take missile upgrades.

I think that this is good. Seraph fires a volley, like Archangel, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. That makes it a bit worse for attacking structures than BB.

In addition, I think that Base Buster must be really bad for shooting at moving targets. Should be made into something really specialized at firing at buildings, and very bad for shooting at fast targets. Or something other that makes it kind of a spin-off from the category. I think that, this way, Seraph wouldn't be made too much obsolete.

Well, as a missile, it would be homing (you know, in case those walls decide to dodge out of the way ). But since it's AS, it does 10x more damage to structures than to units (seriously, it does barely anything to units). Seraph (which is A) is bad at heavy tanks, too, but by T3, the only difference is that Seraph is good against cyborgs, and bad against bunkers.

One way would be to make seraph a heavy weapon and BB a light weapon, or vice versa... But they're both intended to fill light weapon niches... I could make seraph (and possibly also MRA) do AR damage instead of A damage, but I think that would make MRA overpowered, and it would also remove the rocket counter for cyborgs.

We could keep them roughly the same, have them fill the same niche, and let the choice be a matter of personal preference.

[winsrp]

I can just image 30 planes with this Base buster on it.... holy crap.

I image it as a super heavy weapon in terms of weight so it will make tanks reaaaaly slow, and a small range, probably around Small cannon range, so you need to infiltrate it closer to enemy base in order to shoot. Since most defenses are auto target then distraction can be done. Also planes on this thing will need to get closer and since they will be slow its will be like making kamikazes (unless your enemy has no AA), wonder if a super heavy plane will actually be able to take off with this thing.

[Olrox]

Super heavy?

But it's a one-shot/run weapon, in case of VTOLS!

[winsrp]

Well if you think of the likes of the bunker buster in the stage of the game it shows up, with 2 or 3 shoots it can blow up the hardest of walls, when I do my army of 50 planes and mount them with this... I can blow any defense in a matter of minutes... since their reload time its quite normal.

If you make an upgraded version to have the same impact on upgraded walls, then it's way to powerful, since walls can't get any harder after some point, but this weapon will due to the upgrades from missiles. Just my way to see it.

[Olrox]

Well if you think of the likes of the bunker buster in the stage of the game it shows up, with 2 or 3 shoots it can blow up the hardest of walls, when I do my army of 50 planes and mount them with this... I can blow any defense in a matter of minutes... since their reload time its quite normal.

If you make an upgraded version to have the same impact on upgraded walls, then it's way to powerful, since walls can't get any harder after some point, but this weapon will due to the upgrades from missiles. Just my way to see it.

That's because the weapon is strictly for attacknig buildings. As Zarel said, it should do very little damage against vehicles and have low HP, so that it isn't too much of an apocalypse when 30 of those get into your base. It would be a support weapon, used when other units have already softened the defenses. Or, as you said, it would be used more as a kamikaze weapon for VTOLs, where you send a large number of those at a untouched base, and feel lucky if any come back alive.

[Zarel]

I image it as a super heavy weapon in terms of weight so it will make tanks reaaaaly slow,

I'm thinking maybe making this weapon heavy is a pretty good idea.

Base Buster Rotary Siege Missile.

Maybe give it a cooler name, like "Fortress Cracker" (Nexus has always been about dramatic naming. "Retaliation"? "Vindicator"?)

240, 120 splash 1, rof 10, range 14. Weight 10000.

You'd need to update the model to make it seem super-heavy. Maybe make it be 6 of them, in a barrel?

(It'd be ground only, none of this VTOL stuff. If you want a heavy VTOL weapon for attacking structures, just use HEAP bombs...)

It might be useful as a kamikaze weapon against turtles. A bit too useful, maybe. Ah, well, anyone smart is going to have a standing army to deal with such threats.

If you make an upgraded version to have the same impact on upgraded walls, then it's way to powerful, since walls can't get any harder after some point, but this weapon will due to the upgrades from missiles. Just my way to see it.

On the contrary. Wall upgrades can get a max of like 4x HP and 4x armor. Missile weapons only get a max of 1.75x damage and 1.86x ROF.

[winsrp]

On the contrary. Wall upgrades can get a max of like 4x HP and 4x armor. Missile weapons only get a max of 1.75x damage and 1.86x ROF.

I do know this, but the problem is the point in time when the new BB shows up, bases on the target.

When normal BB shows up, it can pretty much blow non upgraded walls in 1 hit, but the target (time it shows up), is that it should take around 2 hits to blow up a wall, and walls are already like 2x times stronger than base. If you have a stronger version of BB, and set it in time to show up around when walls are about 3x to 3.5x strong and still blow it up with 2 hits, then by the time wall hits max level, and new BB hits max level too, then probably new BB will be strong enough to blow up walls with 1 hit, which is overpowered since no more wall upgrades will be available.

Don't know if I'm getting clear on this one.

It'd be ground only, none of this VTOL stuff

I would make the normal BB ground only too...

[Olrox]

Heh, super heavies are much cooler to design!

I'll start working on one.

[Olrox]

At the early schematics, I've seen myself stuck with a question.
Is there a way to limit the vertical firing angle? Because I've tested Bunker Buster Mantis Half-tracks and the gun clipped the propulsion when shooting down from a high cliff (at a structure at its base) already.

If the weapon we are thinking of ("Sentence", what do you think? ) is going to be multi-barreled, it's going to be larger than the BB.

If we can limit the firing angle, then this isn't a problem. And, of course, making it able to fire over obstacles would make it overpowered, methinks