Warzone 2100 Forums

Some of us like the projectile speeds the way they are, especially in T3 with the Gauss Cannons and Scourges. These new projectile speeds take all the fun away IMO.

I was annoyed at the speed increase with the lasers in the previous versions, but those were only a few weapons, so I eventually got used to it. T3 is always fun to play in because of all the projectiles going everywhere; it was fun to watch.

But now, I fall back to the 1.10 rebalance because the new projectile speeds are driving me crazy . At least the speeds there haven't been messed with.

Am I alone with these feelings?

What is the problem exactly?
You think the graphics of the "bullets" is too fast now?

It was either up their velocity, or make them all homing. :/ Which one would you rather have had?

I doubt the theory that projectile slowness is a cause of desyncs. Because of the way responsibility for damage is distributed, and the way kills are synced immediately, the change should not have much effect. Is there evidence for it that I have missed?

@ Kosh

That's exactly it. The bullets are too fast.

@ Zarel

Neither. However, I believe there is another way to help fix the problem. In my limited understanding of the situation, I think the problem was that when units dodged things like Lancers, they were killed anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If, however, that's the case, then why not make it so that if a projectile doesn't actually touch a unit, it does no damage (except in the case of splash damage). That would make the game more realistic. It would also create a mini-strategy that involves sending a brave hover into the line of fire for things like Lancer towers. The Lancers would fire, the Hover would suddenly change direction, and avoid taking as many hits. It would also give the other player time to act while the Lancers are reloading.

Any problems with this?

Per wrote:I doubt the theory that projectile slowness is a cause of desyncs. Because of the way responsibility for damage is distributed, and the way kills are synced immediately, the change should not have much effect. Is there evidence for it that I have missed?

It's indirect. A player micromanages a dodge, so the projectile misses on his end. The game isn't synced well, so the other player thinks the projectile hit. Desync!

Arreon wrote:If, however, that's the case, then why not make it so that if a projectile doesn't actually touch a unit, it does no damage (except in the case of splash damage).

That's the way the current (new) projectile code works, and that's why I hate it, and that's why desyncs happen. Player One's unit dodges and appears takes no damage, but Player 2 doesn't know about the dodge until later, so Player Two sees the projectile hitting, while Player One sees the projectile missing. Desync!

Players shouldn't be micromanaging dodges in the first place (which is why I hate it). So that's why the solution is to increase velocity or make all weapons homing: So they don't micromanage dodging (avoiding flamers is another matter, since that's at least more skill-based and less luck-based and less affected by sync problems.

Arreon wrote:That would make the game more realistic. It would also create a mini-strategy that involves sending a brave hover into the line of fire for things like Lancer towers. The Lancers would fire, the Hover would suddenly change direction, and avoid taking as many hits. It would also give the other player time to act while the Lancers are reloading.

If I wanted a realistic game, I'd go outside. I play games to have fun, not to have them be realistic.

Your "mini-strategy" (which is a tactic, not a strategy) would defeat the purpose of lancers, if everyone can just dodge them.

You guys should be thankful this game doesn't have lag compensation. ...so much more annoying...

Just out of curiosity though, where is this Velocity value adjusted? In stats? B/c I'd love to turn it down a ways for AT missiles. I think it's kinda BS-'y that they move as fast a cannon rounds in the campaign.

Fun fact: I turned up velocity on homing weapons, too, because in some cases the tanks they were chasing could go faster than the weapons themselves.

Yes, they're adjusted in stats.

Arreon wrote:Some of us like the projectile speeds the way they are, especially in T3 with the Gauss Cannons and Scourges. These new projectile speeds take all the fun away IMO.

I was annoyed at the speed increase with the lasers in the previous versions, but those were only a few weapons, so I eventually got used to it. T3 is always fun to play in because of all the projectiles going everywhere; it was fun to watch

laser = speed of light.
by all means, have laser speeds as fast as the game engine allows.
gauss a close second.
my preference would be to have the projectiles as accurately simmed as possible.

Zarel wrote:It's indirect. A player micromanages a dodge, so the projectile misses on his end. The game isn't synced well, so the other player thinks the projectile hit. Desync!

thats not the targeting code at fault.
thats a comms error between the systems. the 'netcode' i think you call it, and its not a secret its bad even if improved quite a bit.

and how did they see it coming anyway?
most arty should by supersonic anyway, many, (if not almost all) missile/rocket arty systems fire weapons that go a few times the speed of sound irl.

Arreon wrote:It would also create a mini-strategy that involves sending a brave hover into the line of fire for things like Lancer towers. The Lancers would fire, the Hover would suddenly change direction, and avoid taking as many hits. It would also give the other player time to act while the Lancers are reloading.

that is a problem.
makes me think adding current tech javlin ATM weapons accuratly would be called majorly overpowered against hundred years from now tech.

Zarel wrote:It's indirect. A player micromanages a dodge, so the projectile misses on his end. The game isn't synced well, so the other player thinks the projectile hit. Desync!

It is a micro-desync. It does not stay out of sync, since the unit owner is the authoritative source of damage, and other damage that should have been caused is just ignored. (Well, almost. If the unit dies at once, it does not matter on which player's side it died on, it will still die everywhere. This is the cause of the seemingly randomly exploding droids that happen sometimes when things go out of sync. Making death also authoritative of the owner has other negative consequences.)

There are three big sources of global desync: The first and worst is the turning on and off multiplayer messages at odd places in the code. The second is that players can play at vastly different update rates (fps), meaning that micro-AI decisions on different sides end up quite different. The third is projectiles hitting objects by intersection checks at fps intervals, which means that fast projectiles can totally miss a target if your fps is low, while it can hit on another person's PC if he has higher fps. Try turning up speed to 10x or 20x and good luck trying to hit something with lasers! Ironically, the increase in projectile speeds makes this problem potentially much worse.

We really need someone to rewrite the projectile code so that it does to hit checking with raycasting instead.

I think if anything we should make the speeds reflect realism, at least relatively.

Lasers should go the fastest (blinding speed in my view), rail guns second to them.

The changes to the machine guns and such are okay as of now from what I've seen.

Per wrote:We really need someone to rewrite the projectile code so that it does to hit checking with raycasting instead.

I thought it _WAS_ a rewrite of the projectile code that has caused more problems.
_THAT_ code should be reverted.

-Kosh- wrote:

Per wrote:We really need someone to rewrite the projectile code so that it does to hit checking with raycasting instead.

I thought it _WAS_ a rewrite of the projectile code that has caused more problems.
_THAT_ code should be reverted.

progression is still progression, even if it has introduced different issues to be accounted for.
realism is always better then hitbyrollofdice in an rts

psychopompos wrote:thats not the targeting code at fault.
thats a comms error between the systems. the 'netcode' i think you call it, and its not a secret its bad even if improved quite a bit.

The interaction between the netcode and the projectile code is what's causing the problem, to be specific.

psychopompos wrote:and how did they see it coming anyway?
most arty should by supersonic anyway, many, (if not almost all) missile/rocket arty systems fire weapons that go a few times the speed of sound irl.

Exactly. Projectiles are too fast to dodge in real life, so realism is a poor reason to able to dodge them in a game.

Per wrote:It is a micro-desync. It does not stay out of sync, since the unit owner is the authoritative source of damage, and other damage that should have been caused is just ignored. (Well, almost. If the unit dies at once, it does not matter on which player's side it died on, it will still die everywhere. This is the cause of the seemingly randomly exploding droids that happen sometimes when things go out of sync. Making death also authoritative of the owner has other negative consequences.)

It's still a problem. The unit owner's droid explodes when he thought he had dodged correctly; regardless of why that happens, it's still a bug.

Per wrote:We really need someone to rewrite the projectile code so that it does to hit checking with raycasting instead.

How's about we just, I dunno, revert to dice rolling for hits, instead of our current buggy collision detection?

psychopompos wrote:progression is still progression, even if it has introduced different issues to be accounted for.
realism is always better then hitbyrollofdice in an rts

Why? As I said, if I wanted realism, I'd go outside. Being able to know my chances of hitting someone is always better than it depending on how lucky they were in changing direction after I fire.

Zarel wrote:The interaction between the netcode and the projectile code is what's causing the problem, to be specific.

that'd be the bit where the hit/miss info isnt being transmitted accurately?

Zarel wrote:Exactly. Projectiles are too fast to dodge in real life, so realism is a poor reason to able to dodge them in a game.

excluding artillary vs light mobile units.
which are capable of getting out of the way due to the long distance of travel & errors in target prediction.

Zarel wrote:It's still a problem. The unit owner's droid explodes when he thought he had dodged correctly; regardless of why that happens, it's still a bug.

so work on the transmition of damage in the netcode.
maybe add an extra bit of confirmation.
1)projectiles projected impact location, target + predicted damage sent on firing.
2)impact location, target location, movement & actual damage returned on impact.
3)confirm.

Zarel wrote:How's about we just, I dunno, revert to dice rolling for hits, instead of our current buggy collision detection?

split yer lungs with blood and thunder
how about fixing the collision detection?
dice roling for hits was one of the biggest pit-falls for warzone gameplay its a viciously outdated way of doing anything outside of a turn based game.
in rts its called sabotage.

Zarel wrote:Why? As I said, if I wanted realism, I'd go outside.

im glad you are lucky enough have an army of tanks & cyborgs outside to play with & order about, but for the rest of us computer games are the release for our urges to lead huge armies or viciously dismember enemies.

Being able to know my chances of hitting someone is always better than it depending on how lucky they were in changing direction after I fire.

i would rather have the realism of knowing i can use fast mobile units as part of a strategy rather then them get hit on the move, by mortar or howitzer fire that landed half a screen behind said unit.
as i just want to turn the game off when i see that happen, rather then having my choices in units & tactics limited by obsolete game mechanics.
its not a bit of wonder that every one depends solely on a swarm of the heaviest units they can build in those situations, because the faster lighter units that could be used for blitz/gurilla tactics get hit even if they evade.

i want realism in my games, thats why i play rts, if i wanted dice rolling to decide the success of my action, id play risk