Warzone 2100 Forums

karmazilla wrote: You're trying to win the "Warzone Photographer of the Month" award? The shots are intriguing. 
Is the map that flat? I like it when the maps resemble real terrain in all it's hillyness (in the rare event that "hillyness" is even a word).  ::)

* Hehe, it's so much fun snapping which I do as if making a Machinima.

* I love natural terrain (inc hilliness - word works for me) and make extensive use of it in CAM exclusive maps - like the WZ Mangodai Campaign Maps I built (I'd spend months just on achieving that natural terrain variety & enjoying the process too.)

* The elev on "Trinity" ranges from 0 to 3 tiles. The Main Base areas are flat to deal with shortfails in pathing & ai...also, specific foward advance roadways to accomodate probs in Net MP. However the rest, inc Foward Bases, make use of "Caldera Plateus".

* These caps are on an earlier build set for Vtol Capping - the current build incs much more hilliness than I've shown.

* However because of what I was attempting GPM-wise, "Trinity" is not as rich in hills as say Troman's "Fortress" or many of Lav's "Mars" maps. It's lineage is more a cross-fertilization of other WZ maps I worked on like Citadel, Citadel Elite & FF-Ops as well some applicable techniques from the Mangodai CAM maps. But the way I laid it out - LOS still very much comes into play as if it were far more hilly than it is - minimalist but effective you could say.

* Sometimes a WZ Mapper has to make sacrafices in natural terrain variety to effectively deal with shortfalls in pathing, A.I. "common-sense" & Net drop-outs (no net MP save) so as to provide the most satisfying GPM MP engagement experience aka "Heat of Battle" and the variety of tac-strat Winning options available to get there.

* That said... there is just enough hilliness to be a lot more interesting than "Team War" style maps but not so much as to invoke the aforementioned shortfalls that trully spoil the MP experience - & in that sense you can get to it with hella gusto but with a breath of strat winning options that "TW" style maps are thoroughly incapable of affording.

* Your point Karma was well taken and touches upon a whole host of issues about the state of WZ GP.

Cheers, rv

Rman Virgil wrote: * Your point Karma was well taken and touches upon a whole host of issues about the state of WZ GP.
Cheers, rv

------------------


* On a footnote to my last post:

* I get & respect the WHYS of "Team-War" style MP maps - they were "A" legit working solution to having MP fun within WZ's technical constraints & GP short-falls. That's it... but, at the same time, not the all of it.

* For this particular solution came at a cost - an extreme narrowing of winning strat options & whole host of pre-conditions that also had to be agreed to before you could get going because these inturn would help to deal with the shortfalls of the WZs Command & Control schema.

* In short, it became (& still is) a predictable & compelling imperative in the HOW you were / are expected to play WZ MP.

* Tiresome & off-putting to the natural spontenaity of getting into a game (on top of the already noted narrowing of playing styles to ONE, instead of many).

* Now the key word above is the simple "A".

* Is there really only this one solution ? (Besides addressing it on a code-dev design level.)

* I think not... & over the years others have taken up that grail with their own alternate implementation journeys (mostly pre-source but one post) - Laws, 4nE, Strata, SAB, Lav Coyote, Maynard, Lord Apoc, Speedy & crew, Troman & Elric's Gates ... to name but some.

* "Trinity" is my particular way of offering a different way of dealing with the inherent constraints already alluded to - the basic technical issues of pathing-a.i., the macro command & control deficiences - but also the perceptual built out of just those conditions & adaptions to them: aka, mental-models, biases, and the like.

* HOW the "Trinity" solution set will play-out in public I cannot say.

* All I can say is I've given it my best shot...  alas I just may have more cojones than any claim to new  design insight.

* In due course, it'll will simply be, warts & all.

* However for me personally, in the end, it is the journey undertaken that matters most.

* In closing - WZ Creators, Pumpkin, never looked at their game as anything other than an ongoing journey of change(s): extentions, refinements, enhancements, evolution. Preserving the whole "look & feel" circa 1999 like a prehistoric fly in amber was NOT the goal of the games original creators. Where that particular aspiration (or in some cases, demand) came from is beyond my ken.

Carpe Diem, rv

-------------------------------------------------


* The Trinity waters must have swells like the land hills. (Miss the "whitecaps" in motion. When I transition my custom water from 16bit .pcx to 32bit .png I'll mod the "RM" set.)


* 3D speed chess, anyone ? (That's in Ski, T-3, all A.I.s @ highest difficulty & allied vs. you. You want to "Turtle" more, lower difficulty, don't allow alliances. Co-Op MP or everyman for himself.... those have no one simple breakdown.)

I think I'm spotting some excellent artillery oppotunities! ;D

karmazilla wrote: I think I'm spotting some excellent artillery oppotunities! ;D

* Yes sir.

* Foward Baseing + Artillary... will be advantageous from the get-go.

* However that line alone will not win the day.

* It will be something of a tug-of-war till other mobile maneuver tacs are invoked - in later stages, fast hover groups plus air-support will be key to advancing Octopus-like. Plus you must still defend on 3 fronts - 4 if you include air defense.

* At this stage of play-testing a pure-rusher will not have the advantage over a turtler who foward-bases.

* Another observation from play-testing is that a little artillery can go a long-way to helping hold choke-points - a set of  which coincide with resources & foward-baseing (a sorta quasi supply-line).

* Also - I mentioned in passing that "Trinity" was modeled on the geo-formation called Caldera Plateus.

* Click HERE for Photos & an explanation of what they are

* In making my Height Map for "Trinity" I didnot use any photos of actual Calderas for a number of reasons. The principle one being MP balance achieved through meta-sysmetry. If "Trinity" were gonna be a Campaign Map I would have used photos of the "Alaska Caldera" because asymetry would have been just fine (even prefered) and most essential balance issues would be dealt with scriptomatically.

* You all may have noticed I'm passing-on a lot of how-to or modus info in this thread. I'm doing that for the benefit any fledgling WZ map-makers that may be reading this.

Cheerio, rv

I think I'm spotting some excellent screenshots! ;D
Too bad that texture resolution and model detail is so low in WZ...

DevUrandom wrote: Too bad that texture resolution and model detail is so low in WZ...

------------
* Indeed, so true Dev.
* But it also brings to mind some practical points & a philosophical one that goes back all the way to Plato's parable of the "Cave".
* Let's start with the practical.
* When you ZOOM for extreme close-ups, the "RM" tile set holds-up far better than zoomed-out (god pov) unlike the "AZ" tile set which looks really good in both perspectives. * However extreme zooming-in can cause a couple of anoying probs: polygon pop-ups in the foreground while scrolling & WZ will simply crash because "out-of-map range" droids are invoked - dodgy code I suspect.
* Now for the philosophical point which I call the "good read" effect.
* IF you can invoke captivating GPMs (multitasking preps to secure position, prepare for battle, the heat of battle itself, etc.) then the player will not be so preoccupied with GFX resolutions & such because their imagination will have been engaged & THAT can make up for a lot.
* Take a book, a ripping yarn, what do you see on the surface: black squiggly marks on paper (or on a screen in the case of comp reading). But if the story besgins to grab-hold of you well then your imagination begins to roll a motion pic in your head. You no longer are simply reading squiggle black marks but experiencing intense events that can encompass all 5 senses as well as your heart & mind - aka, the "good-read effect".
* It's not uncommon to hear: "darn good movie, but the book was so much more..."
* WHY ?
* The human imagination triggered to levels beyond personal worrys can be as instense as confronting THE burning bush. Well, maybe not, but close. Which is a fundamental, universal, human yearning.
* Yes, none of this is farfetched, methinks... but we'll leave it at that and not wax any further - like my referencing Plato's parable of the "Cave".. heh. (Actually, recorded by Plato but attributed to Socrates.)
Cheerio, rv

* The name Trinity was chosen carefully.

* 1st let me tell you what it doesNOT reference.

* It has nothing to do with the character "Trinity" from the Matrix movies.

* It also has nothing to do with the "Trinity" of Christian doctrine.

* What it IS in fact, is a specific homage to that classic of military strategy - "On War" by Von Clausewitz.

* If your interested in specifics here are 2 useful links that deal with this doctrine clearly & comprehensively:

* RECLAIMING THE CLAUSEWITZIAN TRINITY

* And -

* TEACHING THE CLAUSEWITZIAN TRINITY

* One thing leads to another: WZ MP GPM constraints to the geo-formation Calderas to Clausewitz's "Trinity" concepts to Socrate's parable of the "Cave".... go figure.

Cheerio, rv

Are the screens available in higher resolution?
And how did you create that night feeling? Didn't know that one can create such a "darkness"...

DevUrandom wrote: Are the screens available in higher resolution?
And how did you create that night feeling? Didn't know that one can create such a "darkness"...

* The screen cap originals are 900 + kb bitmaps which I down sample to 80% .jpgs which run 15 to 30 kbs for fast web rendering.

* I only have the last set of bitmaps - I usually toss 'em soon after converting.  I can easily re-shoot if the orginal bitmaps are wanted.

* The effects are rendered in debug mode: ctrl + L and ctrl + J 

* In the past they have been inc in mods (fog & mist colors, day-night cycles.... If remember right NIKER's excellent "Become Prey" WZ ski A.I. in KICK Mod form does this as well.)


Cheerio, rv

.

-------------The "Trinity" Story

* There is this too I will share here again because it has been re-drafted with added material. (The earlier ver-post in this thread I've removed.)

* And the story goes like this -

~~~~ The Project Circa 2120 ~~~~


In the aftermath of vanquishing Nexus in 2100, the Project's Axis of Power was in a critically weakened state.

Any strategy of expansion had to first contend with the scarce resources on the North American continent.

From its Command Center built out of the rubble that once was Wash. D.C., Project Intelligence excavated what was left of those vast repositories of humanity's collective knowledge & achievement - the Library of Congress and Smithsonian Institute.

Of course much was lost in the burning holocaust & subsequent ravages of the Darkest Winter but Project Intelligence efforts did yield clues that formed the basis of the Central American Expeditionary Force of 2105 (CAEF).

CAEF was a tremendous gamble for the Project. Resources as scarce as they were, many in the Project Protectorate held it a grand folly and terrible waste to invest in anything other than re-building the depleted N.A. Armed Forces.

After several heated debates, and by the slightest of margins in the Protectorate's governing body, those in favor of CAEF prevailed and in the spring of 2105 the first of several expeditionary forces made its way south to the Yuccatan Penninsula (those that followed would go further, deep into Central America and eventually the Amazon Basin).

Before the end of that year, the CAEF had found the first of half-dozen still intact oil reserves. (It was also discovered, the exact whereabouts a closely guarded secret, a facility for the propagation of Hydrogen fuel & the manufacture of a most advanced hydrogen engine-chassis.)

Through 2106-07 the initial  supply line infrastructure to D.C. was set in place and the build-up of the Project's N.A. war machine in full swing by the start of 2108.

It was during this period of New Prosperity that the Project's Commander & Chief, Elijah Bear Heart, concieved the initiative for a War School to muster the finest Field Commanders. This War School  was later dubbed "Trinity".

Only those Officers in training who survived the final rigors of "Trinity" would receive their field commission to lead Project Armed Forces. Those who failed "Trinity", washed-out of the military all-together but were still eligible for honorable middle-management positions on one of the Project's many ongoing missions to rebuild civilization. 

Funds were appropriated for the "Trinity" War Games Facility in 2109 and by 2110 ground had been broken atop the Central Caldera..

In 2112 "Trinity" was completed and a grand gala opening ceremony held to commemorate the colossal acheivement it represented for the Project's future security.

In 2115 "Trinity" was expanded to include a fall-back, fail-safe location for the Project's Core Protectorate if some catastrophic event were to nullify Central Command & Control from D.C.

Coming foward to 2120, and it's present importance to the  Project's global interests, "Trinity" has become the hub round which the Southern Hemisphere expansion, and it's precious reserves, is held together and safe-guarded from the ever growing barbarian threat in the West. (The Hydrogen Technology Lab & Manufacturing Facility also under its protective wing.)

But of even greater concern to the Project Protectorate were the winds of rumor through the early years of the 22nd century from the other side of the world.

With each passing year blowing with greater force. This whirlwind would sooner or later make its presence felt & "Trinity's" seasoned graduates (astride  rolled-out Hydrogen Technology) would be the Project's best hope for the conflict to come.

Some rhetoric went so far as to call it "an impending, &  inexhorable, march of the titanium heel across the great Pacific ocean".

Bits & pieces of info cobbled over the years painted a picture of this Eastern ascendency as one of half-human, half-machine beings self-proclaimed the Mangodai.

* By those who survived the devastating wake with their humanity intact it was simply called "The Infestation".

* Mounting evidence strongly suggested the Mangodai were Dr Reed's parting gift (or deathbed shot) to humanity upon the fall of Nexus. Some have even posited that the Nexus Mission was a purely diversionary one and that Dr Reed was just buying more time for completing his true purpose - the Mangodai infestion from the Pacific Rim through Asia to the untapped & vast oil reserves in the land of the frigid Steppes.


---------------(to be cont. ?)

That story is really cool and inspiring!
I just got the idea for a new tutorial: The Trinity.

---
Ensign, you are here at the Trinity to become a great commander and leader of our forces!
First we will tell you the basics: How to order your soldiers to build a base, how to design powerfull units and how to make them follow your orders even in stressfull situations.
[...]

You survived the basic training. Good...
Now you will get some basic battlefield experience. Approach the hill to the north... Attack this... Move there...
[...]

It seems you are ready to do your final exams. Get into the arena and fight against your classmates. Only one of you can become a commander.
---

Or alternatively, the last step exchanged with:
---
[...]
I am too sorry we can't finish your training of battlefield movement. I just recieved the notice that we are being attacked by some mechanical droids in Europe. The generals are on an expedition to mars, so you are the only one to secure the earth. Go as fast as you can, the mission briefing lady is allready awaiting you!
---

Well, just some quick scetched ideas...

DevUrandom wrote: That story is really cool and inspiring!
I just got the idea for a new tutorial: The Trinity.
---
Ensign, you are here at the Trinity to become a great commander and leader of our forces!
First we will tell you the basics: How to order your soldiers to build a base, how to design powerfull units and how to make them follow your orders even in stressfull situations.
[...]
You survived the basic training. Good...
Now you will get some basic battlefield experience. Approach the hill to the north... Attack this... Move there...
[...]
It seems you are ready to do your final exams. Get into the arena and fight against your classmates. Only one of you can become a commander.
---
Or alternatively, the last step exchanged with:
---
[...]
I am too sorry we can't finish your training of battlefield movement. I just recieved the notice that we are being attacked by some mechanical droids in Europe. The generals are on an expedition to mars, so you are the only one to secure the earth. Go as fast as you can, the mission briefing lady is allready awaiting you!
---
Well, just some quick scetched ideas...

----------------------------------------------------------

* Thanks Dev. 

* I like the way your imagination works  (making that connection to Lav's "Mars" maps & CAM is a nifty plot twist.) & I also appreciate the courage that goes into such expression. Timidity so rules these days  (or downright rudeness), peeps afraid to say anything but the cooly objective (if not purely slamming), if even that much - it's refreshing, & truly inspireing in it's own right, when authentic conversation flows with grace, civility & wit (there was a time when this was THE rule & not the exception in bbs.... Perhaps its diff on Irc ... More like IMs). 

* Besides the already stated? sources of inspiration for "Trinity" I must mention Orson Scott Card's "Ender" sf stories - recommend highly if you like SF & haven't read.. (Btw, also a very big favorite of WZ creator & head SW engineer for Pivotal Studios, Alex McLean - along with "Zen & the Art Motorcycle Maintenance" & "Godel, Echer, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid"... both highly recommended & also influential in "Trinity's" substructure.)

* Anyway... on a diff note:

* I've gotten MP stress reports from my LAN crew in Denver - much to chew on, a good thing really, but I'm gonna have to step back from the "Trinity" BETA for a week or 2 so I can come back to it with fresh, impartial, & cooly critical eyes to make what final changes seem apt. Plus, I have to focus on my company redeploying me from Arizona to Colorado (to field-test a protoype piece of equipment) then from CO. to Utah to help start-up a brand new project over the next few weeks.

* That said, I realize there are some who have been engaged in this discussion / project & are genuinely curious about "Trinity" & may prefer not to wait for it's final form release in a couple weeks from now.

* I'm willing to accommodate those folks & via email provide the BETA-files for you explore / play with.

* If you just want a taste of the GP experience i'll provide the .wz & .addonlev files. If your a mapper & want to open it in 32 EW, see the structure, even play around with it, generate a height map, make a diff ver., well then just ask me for the BETA .LND file.

* In a closing note: "Trinity" can be configured in many ways - just adding or subtracting 1 oil resource has far reaching effects, also the distanceing of the plateus... just to site 2 variants out of many that can deeply impact the GPMs.

* "Trinity" is a 4-player map? config. as I've built it.

* A 2-player map config could, I believe, be a good "Training Ground" for raw recruits who are not into the Campaign Mode. (Actually the WZ CAM, as much as I luv it,? can be miss-leading in some respects about MP GPMs in the sense that clever scripting and the Unit Transport made for GP that just doesn't exist in WZ MP.)

* As for an 8-player map config.... at this point in WZ dev I suspect it might break the game (for reasons mentioned elswhere), so I wouldn't attempt it.

* Guess that's it save for my addy:
rman2120 AT fastmail DOT fm

* I'll send out any requests for the "Trinity" BETA files by Tuesday am...

Cheerio gents, rv

DevUrandom wrote: ....................

I just got the idea for a new tutorial: The Trinity.

* I've thought on this idea of yours some more (along the lines of my last post but deeper) & when I finish with the present incarnation of "Trinity", I'll begin a variant map - let's dub it tentatively...

Training Grounds.

* Something smaller - maybe 50 x 100, 2-player, mano a mano as they say in Spanish or HTH aka hand to hand or one on one.

* In the meanwhile if anyone else is inspired to take it on - go for it !

* But if there are no takers over the next couple weeks - then, I will.

* Like I mentioned already (but it bears reiterating since it's one of those obvious things that slips into invisibility when it never should), while the WZ Campaign is thoroughly engageing (& holds-up quite well after all these years) it's GPMs are very much colored & controlled  by clever scripting, the availability of the unit transport, the Timers & Map-bounding...... and NONE of those GPMs exist in WZ MP (sadly, IMO).
* Your idea, Dev, for a "New Tutorial" would actually address a vacume in WZ offerings, it seems to me.

* Be intersting to know the skinny of any IRC discussion on such a  proposition.

Carpe Diem, rv

* WOW.... Coyote has posted some info on re-doing the FMV Briefing Sequences for the original CAM and that got me thinking of doing some for this project... (perhaps a new sub-genre of content for WZ)

* So I'm recasting this over-arcing "War Games" Project into 2-parts in light of this recent inspiration and Dev's Tutorial idea.... like so..

* What I've already just about completed will be re-dubbed:

* Trinity 2: High Command... (4-Player Map)

* And the new project I'll start once relocated to Utah will be called -

* Trinity 1: Training Grounds.... (2-Player Map)

* Also in a couple weeks (once re-located from AZ to UT)..... I'll be able to start making FMVs for both (prob .avis but maybe some other ff), based on the narrative material already posted in this thread (by me & Dev).... GFX, SFX, cinema-technique, Music, Voice-acting, text-overlay, the works.... ah yes, Total WZ fun for me...(brings back good WZ memories of making the original "Mangodai Campaign" teaser-trailer so many years ago... lovely, lovely.)

* It's wonderful thing, all these sparks of inspiration coming from diff directions. Very kwel indeed.

- rv