The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

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lav_coyote25
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by lav_coyote25 »

Buginator wrote:Hmm :...:

I don't suppose anyone wants to give me the cliff notes version of what in the world is going on in this thread?
I have a feeling it will takes me days or weeks to get the full gist of what is being discussed, so I need someone to set the time compression to 20x, and let me know! :D

Coyote, how about a graphically representation of everything going on here? ;) You could be a star on you-tube, explaining all this! :3

well i am no youtube star. will have to think about this... perhaps once i am healed from my bone anchored hearing aid surgery :3 xD seriously - google BAHA - will be similar to whatshisface steve austin... hear ants fart at 100 km.... xD
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by whippersnapper »

TylerP223 wrote:I just read through this thread, and as a fellow Troper, just apply the MST3K Mantra to Trucks already, they build sh*t, that's all that matters about trucks. Honestly, I don't see why we need that many different trucks, if there are 6 different sensor turrets available, I don't think we need that many types of trucks either. I do think however, that there should be a Heavy Truck to go along with the Heavy Repair Turret, builds faster, no need for a million and a half different types of trucks.


Good point. I agree.
TylerP223 wrote: I do wish it was easier to turtle, if I had the option. Most of the time I need to mad dash to some tech or another to keep from being blown to bits after 15 minutes of play....
Also agree. I think of Turtle as "foreplay" to the battlefield engagement as the "ecstatic climax"..... This is not gratuitous sexual innuendo - I do
believe their are experiential parallels as in "this game rocks" and having a rocks-off experience. While this may fly in the face of the 60's
Hippy-Dippy mantra, "make love not war", we have to contend with battle conditions thrust upon us and to prevail beyond "blood lust", cool,
calm and collected planning is indispensable to victory. In the context of game play utility the handicap against the Turtle is a reflection of
poor "switch-tasking design" which comes down to an optimal combination of UI and AI as well Balance **, IMHO.

Regards, whipper :)
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** EDIT: When I use the term "balance" I'm indicating more than just the conventional wisdom of balancing Units-Weaps-Tech
(as in the traditional RPS balancing inherited from board games).

I'm also referring to balance between Game Play Mechanics like Research v Harvesting v Battle... which invoke what is called
"switch-tasking" (as distinct from "decision-making") and are very much dependent on GUI and supportive A.I.
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"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." Anthem

"Art is the selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgments." A. Rand
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Buginator
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by Buginator »

lav_coyote25 wrote: well i am no youtube star. will have to think about this... perhaps once i am healed from my bone anchored hearing aid surgery :3 xD seriously - google BAHA - will be similar to whatshisface steve austin... hear ants fart at 100 km.... xD
A titanium implant, an external abutment, and a sound processor ? You better make darn sure your doctor's name isn't Reed!

Hope all goes well. :)
and it ends here.
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whippersnapper
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by whippersnapper »

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Hmm. O_o

One day I visited the land of truth sayers and liars and met an unknown inhabitant who made a statement.

I thought for a few seconds and then said:

"Ya know, before you said that, I had no way of knowing whether it was true or false, but now that you've said
it, I know that it must be false, and hence you must be a liar !"

What did the unbeknown inhabitant.say ? :rolleyes:
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- whipper :ninja:
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"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." Anthem

"Art is the selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgments." A. Rand
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by Zarel »

whippersnapper wrote:Hmm. O_o

One day I visited the land of truth sayers and liars and met an unknown inhabitant who made a statement.

I thought for a few seconds and then said:

"Ya know, before you said that, I had no way of knowing whether it was true or false, but now that you've said
it, I know that it must be false, and hence you must be a liar !"

What did the unbeknown inhabitant.say ? :rolleyes:
Um... I'm gonna put my money on "Stop judging the veracity of my statements based on my land of origin, you racist!"
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lav_coyote25
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by lav_coyote25 »

nope.


he said hello. xD
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by themousemaster »

whippersnapper wrote:.
"Ya know, before you said that, I had no way of knowing whether it was true or false, but now that you've said
it, I know that it must be false, and hence you must be a liar !"
The answer is "I cannot speak".




After reading more and more of his posts, I can't help but wonder if whipper is Tycho from Penny Arcade. they both have a way of using a lot of words to convey what a single word could ;p
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by lav_coyote25 »

lol... a man of many "faces"... i bet he has lost count. xD
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whippersnapper
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by whippersnapper »

themousemaster wrote:
The answer is "I cannot speak"
That's one. There are more.
themousemaster wrote:
After reading more and more of his posts, I can't help but wonder if whipper is Tycho from Penny Arcade. they both have a way of using a lot of words to convey what a single word could ;p
A recurring theme, it would seem. O_o The passing of information is but one of many reasons for the construction of a piece of text.

How 'bout this -

"Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy get's girl back"

Now you can skip reading "Romeo and Juliet" (& thousands of other books) - not to mention you can skip viewing the whole corpus of Hollywood romantic comedies. Oh... and skip listening to countless love songs in every genre of music from Frank Sinatra to Brad Paisly to
Albert King to Cold Play to Eminem...

If appropriate, in my judgement, I can write with tremendous economy.

How about a story in 50 words:
~ Homeless ~

Joe sat surrounded by brown leaves and skeletal trees, the air nipping,
icicles under his park bench.

The ducks were still paddling the frigid pond, not flying south. An omen ?

He couldn't recall his last meal. Exhaling warmth on his hands he
wondered what fingers tasted like. Tomorrow, perhaps.
~ Territory ~

Grizzled Dakar kneeled overlooking a box canyon. Below the ant-line
march of invaders.

Aside, the braves of his tribe poised. Behind, the warmth of hearth & home.

Stoic Dakar signaled descent. Like wisps of fog they moved.

Though courage reigned, every heart knew there would be weeping this night.
Or these haikus:
---> Tracks <---

Ashen poplars winter still
paw prints crust white
red drops to follow
the snowbird watched
~ Saga ~

A salt tang
a sharp glint
within reach
left behind
~ Crucible ~

A burning sky
a hearts journey
thirsting within
doing without
Or aphorism and epigram:

- Courtesies are to the crass as solicitude to the vain.

- The altar of compassion precedes anything that endures; covenants & monuments alike.

- Underlieing any fact, if you dig deep enough, is an act of faith. Indeed, more often than not, you need only scratch the surface.

- Yes our paths cross daily as they have for years. What is remarkable is that there is so little to distinguish those years from this moment.

- Forgive me or not if I chafe but donning the strait-jacket of your presumption is an unsavory, if not impossible, task.

"Tycho" has never been a nick of mine..... I'd guess less than 10 over the last decade. Rman Jack being the first, Jimmy Pastorious the second (after my music heroes Jimmy Hendrix & Jako Pastorious)..... a few in-between like Virgil Glyph... to the present whipper...
Zarel wrote:
Um... I'm gonna put my money on "Stop judging the veracity of my statements based on my land of origin, you racist!"
I like it. It's inspired.. :)

- Regards, whipper
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"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." Anthem

"Art is the selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgments." A. Rand
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by themousemaster »

whippersnapper wrote:Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy get's girl back"

Now you can skip reading "Romeo and Juliet

Ahh, but the difference here is, that there is a level of detail needed to convey an idea. To convey R&J, you need more detail to separate it from other "romance" titles. In some of your posts, you hit the "necessary level of detail", and then continue on to Sweden. Unless Sweden was your intended destination, of course. Then you're spot on.

Also, I think your "Book-A-minute" of R&J is a bit off...

I'd more go with "Boy meets girl. Girl loses boy. Boy and girl both go emo and kill themselves".

(And if anyone is wondering, I don't mind stories with the first 2 sentences, but that last one really made me hate the story, fromt he 1st through the 6th time in school I had to deal with it :P )
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by whippersnapper »

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Depends on your belief structure.... your world view of this mortal coil...

If you believe in an afterlife R & J's love for one another can manifest beyond death... They found this world of too, too, sordid
flesh incompatible with their emotional bonds so they resorted to joining beyond a corporeal existence in eternity.

If I may quote the Bard:
Act 3 Scene 1: To Be, Or Not To Be (Spoken by Hamlet)

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
Unlike the vacillating Hamlet, R & J had the impetuosity & reckless abandon of youth to go
to "The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns...."

Regards, whipper. :)
.
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"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction." Anthem

"Art is the selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgments." A. Rand
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by themousemaster »

whippersnapper wrote:If you believe in an afterlife R & J's love for one another can manifest beyond death

This would be true. That said:

A) I don't, and

B) These stories have always irked me since any rational individual would realize what's going on here wasn't "love" (no matter how strongly the author says it is), but a physical reaction due to raging hormones. Real "in love" individuals wouldn't be so short-sighted; they would actually, ya know, think about their actions, AND how said actions would impact the other, rather than just how the other person makes them "feel", and actions based thereof.

Which, of course, wouldn't have been nearly as popular of a story. People don't buy a book (or in this case, see a play) for "rational" viewing :P. But that doesn't mean I have to like it :P.
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

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themousemaster wrote:B) These stories have always irked me since any rational individual would realize what's going on here wasn't "love" (no matter how strongly the author says it is), but a physical reaction due to raging hormones. Real "in love" individuals wouldn't be so short-sighted; they would actually, ya know, think about their actions, AND how said actions would impact the other, rather than just how the other person makes them "feel", and actions based thereof.
Oh, what, you think your so-called "real love" is any different? Attraction is hormones and emotions, friend, that's all it is. You think your "love" is better because you have a longer courtship ritual?

It's easy to say "In that situation, I would clearly have done this" knowing the full story and having as much time to think about it as you want. But they were teenagers. They were irrational. They thought each other had died, and they were afraid they would never see each other again. It had nothing to do with being "fake in-love". If Romeo and Juliet had the ability to see the future and stop time, I bet they wouldn't've killed themselves, either.

Plus, Shakespeare does make references to that - notice Romeo being all "Oh Rosaline! I shall never love another!" about two seconds before he falls in love with Juliet.
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

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Zarel wrote:Oh, what, you think your so-called "real love" is any different?
Indeed. My "so called love" is 100% attraction free.

Until you can look at someone and say "If I could stay with this person the rest of my life, knowing >>>I'd never have sex again<<< (for whatever reason), I'd be happy", then it's not love.


I will say that Romeo and Juliet *may* have loved each other. However, the way the story goes, what they are showing clearly isn't *that*, as defined above.


There was simply not enough time in the story to develop this aspect. If Romeo and Juliet had known each other for years beforehand in, say, an online relationship (which I realize isn't possible in their time-frame, so... maybe a pen-pal esque one) specifically in which they didn't know each other's looks, then perhaps I would have given a nod.

Another, more contemporary example would be Final Fantasy IX (not that most of the FF's arent guilty of this in some way, but this one has both Ur- and De-examples in it). Zidane and Garnett knew each other for... if I recall correctly, 2 weeks; and, conincidentally, both are right at raging-hormone age, so I call shenanigans. Stiener and Beatrix, however, have known each other for decades before the game began. They have the requisite knowledge of each other to make the difference call between Wanderlust and Mental attachment. (not that I think Steiner is a shining example of decency overall, but at least he is covered in this point).


Zarel wrote:notice Romeo being all "Oh Rosaline! I shall never love another!" about two seconds before he falls in love with Juliet.
Indeed, but I've seen that in... 50% of all sub-30 targetted media ever, so I'm used to the characters doing that; William himself seems to forget about his own lampshade hanging himself over the rest of the story however.


Let me wrap up with: Romeo and Juliet I don't by as a tradgedy. If anything, I was cheering at the ending (the first time I was exposed to it anyway), as it prevented them from reproducing.
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Re: The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

Post by whippersnapper »

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What follows I consider this topic's linchpin in a practical sense but at the same time, a very concise mindcast that owns itself.

Somethings are difficult to wrap your noggin around because they represent something of an affront to conventional wisdom. This is one of those occasions.

RPS (Rock, Paper, Scissors), adapted from board games to comp games, is a technique originally invoked to deal with the limits of comp processing power to sim any aspect of real combat experience.

Over time this has also become an instance of losing sight of the forest for the trees - tactics contra strategy, if you will, in the design of battle GPMs.

What do these tandem statements mean exactly ?

It comes down to the difference between "fixed movement rules" (board games) vs. "free-maneuver" (RTS). This is a partial sim approach and that is more than enough. A total sim is NOT the point or goal here. The latest cognitive science is also being applied but in the service of the art of game design.

Movement ruled by RPS constructed knowledge served, in a very real sense, to replace visceral maneuver skills, audacity, creativity & complexity* (defined below).

As the viability of enhanced maneuver skills escalates through the switch-tasking efficacy of Command Control GPMs-GUIs the central importance of movement rules shaped by an RPS construct is diminished.

Achieving one viable maneuver skill we'll call "asymmetric success" would make of RPS a niche GPM flavor rather than central to satisfying game play or victory.

Maneuver will trump RPS balance under these conditions by a design that is closer to invoking RL War decision-making which is more viscerally & intellectually satisfying to the field general alter ego resident in RTS gamers by definition.

Within a couple years, this will become conventional wisdom, not an affront to and, by extension, the band-wagon to climb aboard.
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* Complexity maneuver I define in this context as effective, coordinated, control over multiple combat groups from multiple vectors at varying velocities..

One practical implementation would go like so (quoting myself):..

- You have 3 Combat Groups: #1, #2 and #3.

- You see those #s on the Mini-Map and can do the following: set-up way points, patrols, coordinated offensive maneuvers from
multiple vectors and at varying velocities.. Basically, this is how 21st Century RL Military OPs are executed. It's called "C3" for
"Communications, Command, and Control". IMHO it would be an elegant way to introduce such a game play mechanic into WZ.
You would be re-assembling what's already there and you wouldn't even need a new GUI. Neat. 'Course it could be further refined
once BetaWidget is fully implemented utilizing one of Elio's fine UI prototype / mock-ups...

- This would also have the side benefit of relieving some of the bogus switch-tasking strain of attending NON-combat tasks while
trying to control a major offensive. As I have said elsewhere - "I think the switch tasking excessive to the point that it degrades the
battlefield aspect of the game which for me is the #1 experience that all other features and GUI's should serve to enhance."
The beauty of all this is that it can be subject to the rigors of a scientific experiment-lab.... readily transcending opinion, if you will.

Arrivederci !, whipper :cool:
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