The Future of RTS...& the 7 Deadly Sins

[whippersnapper]

qutoing from TVTropes eh? ;p

- Yep... also a big fan of Joss Whedon's storytelling craft, esp in "Firefly-Serenity".

The thing is, I don't think the existing system is "applied Phlebotinum". Generally, when that term is used, there is some specific "thing" that is given in-game, but then not explained how it works; for example, in the Stargate universe, there is "Naqwadah" (if I spelled that right), For star Trek, it's "dilithium" (which could technically exist, but doesn't do anything nearly like StarTrek says it does)...

- I think it also equally applies to "process-events" as it does "specific things" (I'm here invoking Quantum Theory to applied Phlebotinum - neat )

If there was some "substance" in warzone that was described and not explained, then I'd go with the Phlebotinum explanation... but as it seems like they are using standard "real" methods in the game, it's just an exercise for the user, rather than a special, undefined effect of fictional origin.

- Well.... pumped crude oil is magically refined and transported to the power generators which in turn magically send said energy to trucks which in turn magically harvest matter to reassemble magically from blueprints utilizing said magically transferred energy. I would summarize my point as so - adding tactical value by removing some of the "magic" to underscore supply-line logistics in military conflicts.

And as such, I don't think the trucks are doing anything "spectacular", warranting them any more special treatment than, say, the Peasants in warcraft.

- Peasants are slave labor wielding shovels and picks to harvest materials. I cannot equate them to the power of trucks.

In fact, going off the model that the trucks are just using the raw materials that the generators are powering the processing of... if anything, it's the combination of refinery and generators that are the "amazing" feature, and the trucks are just the WZ equivalent of the Army Corp of Engineers (not that that isn't a worthwhile job mind you, to any RL ones out there )

- Well using the analogy of the Army Corp of Engineers (ACE) is interesting because that invokes much more than skilled labor. It invokes working off complex designs. Case in point - ACE created 75-mile, man-made shipping channel dubbed "hurricane highway" (Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet, a shipping channel dug in the 1960s as a short-cut between the Gulf of Mexico and New Orleans). As early as the the 1950's there are documents attesting to the dangers of this compromising the levees protecting the city of New Orleans from catastrophic flooding. ACE went ahead in 1960s despite these warnings. Fast forward to Katrina. The rest is common knowledge. Trial against ACE commenced a few days ago.

- As stated earlier... I agree 'the combination of refinery and generators that are the "amazing" feature'... but I use the word "magic" and I also think it applies to the functionality of Trucks.

- As for peasants in WC, on the flip side of my other comment - they clearly illustrate the value of supple-line GPMs which are greatly lessened in WZ's design and thus do not factor in tactics to what I think is a diminished command experience.

- Regards, whipper

[themousemaster]

yes, but in WC3, peasants can also erect a pinnacle of magical prowess with just their pickaxe and some wood/gold. I think this goes both ways .

Also...

the value of supple-line GPMs

I'm going to assume that was supposed to say "supply-line"? Else, I think you want the Warzone XXX board

[Timmay]

Okay,

The Paradox of Trucks..

Sorry guys, I don’t get the importance of this debate, for me the whole discussion sounds like the hunting for the snark...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snark_(Lewis_Carroll)

I don’t think that there must be an explanation, let the Trucks just build complex Structures out of nothing and let the Snark ne a Snark xD

[lav_coyote25]

this isnt on only the trucks... you should read the whole thread to get the full impact of what is being discussed.

[whippersnapper]

yes, but in WC3, peasants can also erect a pinnacle of magical prowess with just their pickaxe and some wood/gold. I think this goes both ways

- Hehe.... Honestly, I really don't know WC 3... I did play 1 & 2 a bunch and especially enjoyed our all night LAN parties with kegs of Bass Ale and fifths of Stoli. We also replaced all the sound files with our own recordings and lord we spent half the time bowled over our keyboards laughing like madmen.

Also...

"whippersnapper": the value of supple-line GPMs

I'm going to assume that was supposed to say "supply-line"? Else, I think you want the Warzone XXX board

- Well, I thought I made my intent clear in my 1-3 posts on Trucks (& Repair Turrets) but I apologize if I didn't n because
of my peculiar prose stylings which sometimes lean more to Henry James than Ernest Hemingway...

- I'll get to answering your last comment with my response to the next poster - Timmay....

Okay,

The Paradox of Trucks..

Sorry guys, I don’t get the importance of this debate, for me the whole discussion sounds like the hunting for the snark...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snark_(Lewis_Carroll)

I don’t think that there must be an explanation, let the Trucks just build complex Structures out of nothing and let the Snark ne a Snark xD

- I've read all Lewis Carrolls books (inc his treatise on Logic) to great pleasure.

- I've said it more than once in this thread but let me re-phrase, yet again.

- I'm merely using WZ 2100 as a lens to re-examine various components that make up an RTS's design. I'm NOT doing it to advocate or promote changes be made by the WRP Dev. Team.. I worked on WZ a bunch over the years (since 1999) - a goodly portion released and a fair amount never released. Both released and unreleased made many changes to WZ..... all very satisfying to me and my collaborators. What I'm doing now is making a strategy game from scratch and this thread's discussions are my way of thinking-out loud in public & out-side the box, reviewing the development decisions I'm part of making, listening to what RTS fans have to say on the various topics raised here, learning and enjoying the conversation..... as I hope some others who wander in here are as well experiencing an intellectual delight.

this isnt on only the trucks... you should read the whole thread to get the full impact of what is being discussed.

- Amen, brother. Boy do I appreciate how you feel about the documents project. Yikes !!!

- Regards, whipper.
.

[themousemaster]

Well, I thought I made my intent clear in my 1-3 posts on Trucks (& Repair Turrets) but I apologize if I didn't n because
of my peculiar prose stylings which sometimes lean more to Henry James than Ernest Hemingway...

Actually, I was just making fun of a 1-letter typo; simply replacing 1 "y" with an "e" (in the part that I bolded) basically caused your entire argument to shift to sounding like something I need to be at least 21to legally hear

[whippersnapper]

.

- I was just in a silly mood but maybe I should add - don't drink and drive, seriously. Take a cab or call a sober bud ta get ya home safely.
Also, I'm not advocating a dissolute life of alcoholism or any form of substance abuse or addiction (not even addiction to gaming)... Moral correctness has been served, I would say..

------------------->

- Let me sum up my PoV on Constructors and Healers in RTS (to use their generic labels).

- A GPM that encourages their use as disposable, suicide units, is a failed GPM, IMO.

- I like the way these unit GPMs are designed in TA and Myth., for example.

- I also think there is a place for dedicated suicide units RTS, specifically designed to take that risk (as part of a carefully considered strat / tac), in the form of Decoys or Berserkers (or both, as in 2 units)...

- NEXT: Time for a recommendation on the Strategies and Tactics of War throughout the ages.

- Regards, whipper
.

[whippersnapper]

.
- Before I get to those recommendations...

- I posted the following earlier in the "WZ 2100 Wish List Part 4" thread but it also belongs here.

.

- Picking up on slvr bl's thought but postulating a very different mechanic. What could be helpful is if your Combat Groups
where identifiable and could be maneuvered on the Mini-Map..

- For example..

- You have 3 Combat Groups: #1, #2 and #3.

- You see those #s on the Mini-Map and can do the following: set-up way points, patrols, coordinated offensive maneuvers from
multiple vectors and at varying velocities.. Basically, this is how 21st Century RL Military OPs are executed. It's called "C3" for
"Communications, Command, and Control". IMHO it would be an elegant way to introduce such a game play mechanic into WZ.
You would be re-assembling what's already there and you wouldn't even need a new GUI. Neat. 'Course it could be further refined
once BetaWidget is fully implemented utilizing one of Elio's fine UI prototype / mock-ups...

- This would also have the side benefit of relieving some of the bogus switch-tasking strain of attending NON-combat tasks while
trying to control a major offensive. As I have said elsewhere - "I think the switch tasking excessive to the point that it degrades the
battlefield aspect of the game which for me is the #1 experience that all other features and GUI's should serve to enhance."


- Regards, whipper.
.

- Why does it belong in both threads ?

- Well, first, I placed the mechanic in the context of WZ 2100 but I was actually sharing what I've already been code-scripting in the strat game I
working on.

- Two - This, in capsule form, represents a major design commitment and perspective on what is some of the deepest fun you can try to achieve by way of HOW an RTS feels and plays-out thru its major GPMs. And this in-turn is part of the core question this thread has attempted to grapple with (and wrestle cohesive meaning from), out of the infinite possibilities and choices you have to make when creating a strategy game with an overt military grounding..

- Regards, whipper
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[whippersnapper]

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- Time for those recommendations...

- If you only study 1 book on War Strategies, from the dawn of human history to the 21st Century - then this is the book for you:

- "The 33 Strategies of War" by Robert Greene. Published in 2006 it is likely in the collection of most Public and University
libraries - so you don't have to spend a cent on it. I'm dipping into this book all the time for inspiration - for Campaign game play and MP GPMs for the strategy game. This book also makes for a marvelous companion work to Sun Tzu's "Art of War" classic.....

- Now this next recommendation takes you to the guts and mind-set necessary to survive and succeed in the heat of combat.
This may sound like a stretch, grossly far-fetched even, but I'm gonna say it anyway. Black Project's "Hard Core Campaign Mod"
pushes the game play experience into this realm of high-level competence within the crucible of combat...

- "On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict In War and In Peace" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.
Again, what follows may sound whack, but I believe invoking this sensibility in RTS game play is as much a pay-off yearned for as
what you feel on a magnificent roller coaster ride...scares the bejesus out of ya but ya can't wait to get back on again. A fun way
of testing the limits of your mettle.

- Regards, whipper.
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[whippersnapper]

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Lot's of folk seem to think that coming-up with ideas is hard. Not at all. That's the easy part. ideas are everywhere you turn.
The real challenge is first picking and choosing from the abundance of riches, giving it you're own unique stamp in a
a cohesive whole that is compelling and engaging.

In working on a new campaign one of the first things I had to do is write a detailed backstory and time-line of events leading up to
the opening first mission..... AND also for all the years over-which the Campaign itself from Mission 1 to the Finale unfolds..

Lot's of peeps over the years have proposed a New WZ Campaign but the biggest problem has been that nobody that has made
those propositions can script, most can't make maps, etc., etc.

Well one way to approach it is to take, for example, the Beta Map from the original campaign bring it into 32EW and re-work it according
to a new scenario you have written which you have used to make Mission Pre-Scripting Analysis docs (aka, MPSA). But what about scripting ?, you ask. Well there are 2 WZ A.I. Editors (1 editor is specifically for creating new missions)..... which you can use to translate
those MPSA docs into a set of say 8-10 New Missions on the modified Beta Map. Don't have to be a master map-maker or master A.I.. scriptor to get it done but you do need to come-up with new back-story and mission constructs that are fresh and interesting.

I've had a slew of sources that have inspired me in my campaign work - many I've already posted here. But here are 2 more that
are full of story ideas for back story-missions and also make for fascinating reading...

1.) "7 Deadly Scenarios: A Military Futurist Explores War in the 21st Century" by Andrew Krepinevich.... and

2.) "If the Universe is Teeming With Aliens, Where Is Everybody ?: 50 Solutions To the Fermi Paradox & the Problem
of Extraterrestrial Life" by Stephen Webb.

- Regards, whipper
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[whippersnapper]

.

Re-studying an interesting 7-part series of blogs (from the end of 2008) on RTS Game-Play Design
by Jeb over at Oxeye Game Studio.

In particular he clarifies the crucial distinctions between "Unit Balance" (Part 5), "Visible Balancing" (Part 6)
and "Abstract Balancing" (Part 7).

Parts 1 - 4 are also worth looking over:

RTS Game-play Part 1: Terminologies

RTS Game-play Part 2: Resource Systems

RTS Game-play Part 3: Build Options

RTS Game-play Part 4: Macro Limits

Goes to my set of RTS balance resources on the Net I shared in this thread several months back.

- Regards, whipper.

EDIT: Ooops... forgot the link: http://www.oxeyegames.com/category/rts-design/

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[whippersnapper]

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If I had to choose my single over-arching GPM goal it is to make asymmetric engagement a viable set of tactics in RTS MP.

I've gone into great detail earlier in this thread on what constitutes Asymmetric Warfare and what combination of Unit-Commander
A.I. , linked C3 modeling and supportive UI (with minimal switch-tasking) it would take to make this practical and fun in MP mode.

In the past I've illustrated Asymmetric Tactics in a strategy game by comparing it to the Queens Gambit in Chess.

Now let me take an example from recent history.

In 2006 less than 500 Hizballah Militia stymied a 30,000 man Israeli attack which also included one of the most extensive air
campaigns in Middle East history.

Leaving the politics aside here, i am using a tactical analysis of this battle as a basis for a sequence of missions in the campaign
I'm working on.

This tactical analysis might be of interest to mapper-moders looking for inspiration. You can check-out the analysis HERE

To make this type gameplay possible in WZ MP is mainly dependent on the BetaWidget - LUA implementation.

- Regards, whipper
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[Buginator]

Hmm

I don't suppose anyone wants to give me the cliff notes version of what in the world is going on in this thread?
I have a feeling it will takes me days or weeks to get the full gist of what is being discussed, so I need someone to set the time compression to 20x, and let me know!

Coyote, how about a graphically representation of everything going on here? You could be a star on you-tube, explaining all this!

[whippersnapper]

Hmm

.........how about a graphically representation of everything going on here? You could be a star on you-tube, explaining all this!

You read minds ?

I've been working on a summary that is graphics with minimal captions, no paragraphs, for the last couple days. Seriously. Almost done.

Keeping it to < 6 Graphics. Doing the final UI mock-up graphic now. Be done by the weekend I hope.

Regards, whipper.

EDIT: Couple more recommendations that link up with what I'm summing up as the over-arching strategy game play experience goal this thread has wrestled with. This is formula phrase -

Player Battlefield Command as a General = Recon + Data Fusion + Opportunity Assessment + Applied Tactical Filter + Maneuver of Multiple Combined Arms Combat Groups from Multiple Vectors and Varying Velocities.

The 2 additional worthwhile reads are:

1.) "A Quick and Dirty Guide To War, 4th Edition - The Tools for Understanding the Global War on Terror, Cyber War, Iraq, the Persian Gulf, China, Afghanistan, the Balkans, East Africa, Colombia, Mexico, and Other Hot Spots" - by James F. Dunnigan

2.) "Wargaming for Leaders: Strategic Decision Making from the Battlefield to the Boardroom" - by Mark L. Herman
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[TylerP223]

I just read through this thread, and as a fellow Troper, just apply the MST3K Mantra to Trucks already, they build sh*t, that's all that matters about trucks. Honestly, I don't see why we need that many different trucks, if there are 6 different sensor turrets available, I don't think we need that many types of trucks either. I do think however, that there should be a Heavy Truck to go along with the Heavy Repair Turret, builds faster, no need for a million and a half different types of trucks. I do wish it was easier to turtle, if I had the option. Most of the time I need to mad dash to some tech or another to keep from being blown to bits after 15 minutes of play....