Warzone 2100 Forums

I noticed an interesting comment from Aubergine in the thread about JSLoad in the scripting forum:

aubergine wrote:Also, I imagine jsload type thing could be used in multiplayer games if a player quits -- they could be replaced by an AI so that the game can continue?

It was stated that this would not be possible because of "desync" issues, but is this something that could be implemented in some other way, ie when a MP player quits the units / structures they have on the map are replaced by AI?

It's just that on many occasions a MP game is not worth continuing when a player quits, it is especially frustrating when you have invested a lot of time building up your base, etc.

I know with the current way things are done this would not be possible for the host of the game, but for other players it would be a big improvement.

Replace with Scavs, if enabled. I like.

Replace with scavs is excellent idea!

Yeah, not only you loose your ally, but also you get a scavenger base with 8 derricks and 3 factories as your closest neighbor. This surely helps balancing the game (:

It would make quitting a strategic choice

4v4, one team drops 3 of it's players to get a scav legion...

Also, what if empty slots (as in no player in them at start of game) were also filled with scavs?

aubergine wrote:Replace with scavs is excellent idea!

Why not just leave the exiting players units / structures as they are and then continue with the AI - really replacing with scavs, you might as well not replace at all cause scavs are pretty weak. Or is could be that the AI will be too strong? The AI is always going to have the advantage with Micro management, and I guess this can be a big advantage in late game, not sure...

In early game scavs are strong because they can spawn lots of units and defences, not to mention that they can set up base pretty much anywhere.

In late game, yes, they would be useless.

For me, I just liked the idea of scavs moving in to take over an abandoned base - it's exactly what you'd expect them to do.

Rommel wrote:always going to have the advantage with Micro management, and I guess this can be a big advantage in late game, not sure...

Unfortunately, no, again. It might seem promising, but in fact tactics and micromanagement is the AI aspect hardest to program. I tortured my AI for months, but it still fails to understand the most basic aspects of it, i still outmicro him easily. It all seriously relies on human eye's image recognition, while most of the macro decisions are fairly easy to describe and program.

The only area an AI may have an advantage is fighting for remote oils: it may effectively capture oil in early game on a map with dozens of oils spread throughout the map, and also harass dozens of defenseless derricks with single droids at the same time. But if the map makes this sort of skill significant, it is considered to be a flaw of the map (one of the typical examples is 2c-Roughness, to some extent).

NoQ wrote:

Rommel wrote:always going to have the advantage with Micro management, and I guess this can be a big advantage in late game, not sure...

Unfortunately, no, again. It might seem promising, but in fact tactics and micromanagement is the AI aspect hardest to program. I tortured my AI for months, but it still fails to understand the most basic aspects of it, i still outmicro him easily. It all seriously relies on human eye's image recognition, while most of the macro decisions are fairly easy to describe and program.

One thing I have noticed is that the AI seems to have trouble forming a forward defensive line, something that seems to be important in the NTW games where each team tries to establish their main defensive line as far forward as possible. From what I have seen Nullbot seems to start defensive structures at the base and then creep them forward from there while sending troops up forward until they encounter substantial resistance and lose their health and then go back and repair if they can - I may be wrong, but from games I have had with Nullbot on NTW it seems it does not hold on to territory it has gained up forward. In regards to this, if you have your wits about you massed troops can easily get you right outside Nullbots base, then it is just a matter of out building it in regards to defenses, units and keeping him contained. This is what I gathered in the few games I played against the AI in NTW, but I will try some more to confirm if this is the case.

In regards to Micro Management, I thought it would have been relatively straight forward to program in the micro management via conditions as each weapon / strat seems to have a counter, things like if x rocket tanks build cyborgs, etc... (although this does imply reacting to what the human player is doing as opposed to using initiative so it might not work either) and stuff like power ratio to creating units/defensive structures/art emplacements/research.

Thinking on this (and totally offtopic) it would be nice if you could record macros with WZ, so you could test strategies against other strats - I know totally not AI, lol but would be cool.

things like if x rocket tanks build cyborgs, etc...

This is not micromanagement.

the AI seems to have trouble forming a forward defensive line

Define "forward", so that on every map a stupid computer knew where is "forward" (:

Oh you are right, I am a bit mixed up there, should have said reacting. Micromanagement part was "and stuff like power ratio to creating units/defensive structures/art emplacements/research". And I guess this must be able to adapt / react to the given situation and this is maybe what you were talking about when you mentioned this:

"It all seriously relies on human eye's image recognition"

So I wonder in a humble way, is this recognition not possible to duplicate in some fashion with some form of conditionals? What the human eye sees are graphics which are the culmination of routines in the software - everything that is happening is inside the "world" generated by the software and the AI has access to this (probably at a deeper level than the human).

Without some kind of genius algorithm I could see this being a huge set of conditionals however as you would have to cater to most possibilities; you could never get them all. Actually that makes me wonder, are the AIs for WZ actually AIs? Or is it just a set of conditionals? heheh thinking on that, maybe our thought processes are nothing more than a set of conditionals as well lol

Oh and about forward... towards enemy bases, towards the closest enemy? When I play the AI, they seem to find my oil easy enough and send units towards me as well, so they must have an idea where my base is...

Oh and about forward... towards enemy bases, towards the closest enemy? When I play the AI, they seem to find my oil easy enough and send units towards me as well, so they must have an idea where my base is...

"Where your base is" is not "forward", for the AI isn't supposed to build defenses at "your base". Thus, "forward" is some other place to define. Also, not only the place, but a correct defense line direction and particular structure placement requires consideration.

Some well-made maps include special hints for AI players, known as "gateways", placed by the map creator to help the AI place defenses strategically.

is this recognition not possible to duplicate in some fashion with some form of conditionals?

I didn't say it's impossible, i said it's hardest to program.

Micromanagement part was "and stuff like power ratio to creating units/defensive structures/art emplacements/research".

That's not micromanagement either. Let us start with this.

Actually that makes me wonder, are the AIs for WZ actually AIs? Or is it just a set of conditionals?

They are a set of conditionals. Anything is a set of conditionals as long as you know how it works.

NoQ wrote:

Rommel wrote:Actually that makes me wonder, are the AIs for WZ actually AIs? Or is it just a set of conditionals?

They are a set of conditionals. Anything is a set of conditionals as long as you know how it works.

Conditionals and randomizers actually.

I still support replacing them with a scav base. Or an easy Ai.