3.1 rc 3 is the end of the world, and kills kittens!!!

[zydonk]

Constructive replies here, at last.

raycast: comparative criticism of 239 is usually pretty vague, while support for 31 is usually of the "better than it was" variety. The point I press is in part rhetorical - comparing generalities - so that I can always argue that, taken as a whole, the targeting, movement, and the render (NOT the terrains) in 31 are manifestly inferior to those in 239. I stick to this argument because it seems to me that either there is not the will or the possibility that the inadequacies of 31 in these areas can be corrected. The unit movement, for example, is now workable, but it looks contrived and piecemeal. Borgs gather in columns, three to a row, and here and there a borg will pirouette in an utterly pointless way - simply because of the make-do quality of that particular arrangement. Look, even back in the 90s you could gather an army of 50/60 soldiers in a Settler release and they would jostle about quite realistically and then move forward in a tidy bunch when needed. The underlying problem in 31, it seems to my layman's eye, is that the limitations of the renderer (and perhaps the tiling itself) does not allow such flexibility in movement. Units cannot even pass between diagonally placed structures! Thus movement in 31 will never achieve the fluency - what Per himself described as "polished" - of 239. And that for me is a failure in the project.

What you say about targeting gave me pause. But consider what kind of defense/offense arrangements would be available? Each weapon placement would need to be isolated by a set amount, so that dormant towers/hps could not be taken out - remember, crucially, that mobile units are not subject to the same limitation. The arrangement I described above had tried to take the pecularities of the new targeting system into account, but as before one rush of heavy tracks wiped everything out. "Closest alone shoots" is simply inadequate to WZ gameplay as it is. Would you consider limiting mobiles in the same way? Think of the micromanagement, for one thing. No other RTS has this kind of targeting and never will. It is a silly, poorly considered innovation undertaken because someone had a bright idea and was allowed to follow it through.

More generally: It's obvious that much of the dev of wz has been aimed at improving mp, and it would seem that 31 has been a big improvement in that area. At the same time the operation of the game has been modernised in the areas of audio and graphics (screen size and render). I greeted the inception of 31 with enthusiasm, which was at first tempered by the very apparent limitation in the render, which lies at the heart of most of the problems to do with movement, and in the tiles themselves (poor definition). There has been a lot of fiddling to improve things, but I now think that the renderer simply does not do a good job and that it should be replaced (without knowing what would be involved). When the new targeting system is added to this situation, you have a game which is seriously handicapped in its gameplay.

I came to admire WZ through years of hard play with the original 110 game. I have seen the playability of the game improve enormously, while the actual gameplay weaken bit by bit through successive rebalances - to the point where mods are now required in order to breathe at least a little life into the game. I am grateful that I can still play the original game by means of a mod under 239, and that I have finally got back the ability to survive 7 hour struggles in hard mode. There is no way that this will be possible with 31 or its derivatives. Whatever 31 is, it is not Warzone 2100. An mp app, perhaps, with too much AI and research.

Should I accept this?

[zydonk]

Is like burying your head in the sand?

[zydonk]

I assume that the more pressing problems can be corrected by reinstating the 239 code

Not easily, there are years of development between 2.3 and 3.1, and Warzone isn't the best example of well-separated, encapsulated code.

Granted. Think of WZ dev as a computer game, with each release like a savegame. I think of Philospher's Quest, a text game from the 1980's on the BBC Micro. You save your game and head off down this path, but after a while you come to a dead end. What do you do? Trek all the way back, or do you load a savegame that takes you back to the point where you branched off?

If the netcode can be isolated from the rest of 31, could that not be grafted onto 239, and then a new branch started that could then encapsulate other real improvements achieved in 31? I know the 31 tiles do not render well in 239, but that seems a problem with definition only.

239 is not some kind of solution to the problem of 31, just the point for a new departure down another path. This can be done, while putting 31 down to experience and learning from it.

[zydonk]

So less bluster, Per, and more doing.

Ironic.
Can't you think that the devs have to do stuff in real life too? They don't get paid for what they do, so don't complain if they can't make many changes fast.

But have time for snafus? People never have time for the drudgery of correction.

[Cyp]

...

If the netcode can be isolated from the rest of 31, could that not be grafted onto 239, and then a new branch started that could then encapsulate other real improvements achieved in 31? I know the 31 tiles do not render well in 239, but that seems a problem with definition only.

...

Fine, if you provide a simple patch which successfully grafts 3.1's netcode onto 2.3.9 by the end of this week, we can release it as 2.3.10.

[vexed]

I came to admire WZ through years of hard play with the original 110 game. I have seen the playability of the game improve enormously, while the actual gameplay weaken bit by bit through successive rebalances - to the point where mods are now required in order to breathe at least a little life into the game. I am grateful that I can still play the original game by means of a mod under 239, and that I have finally got back the ability to survive 7 hour struggles in hard mode. There is no way that this will be possible with 31 or its derivatives. Whatever 31 is, it is not Warzone 2100. An mp app, perhaps, with too much AI and research.

Should I accept this?

Nope, your wrong. The 1.10 mod can only do so much, and all it does is bring the stats over that were originally used. However, that still don't make it anywhere near the same gameplay as was in 1.10. Lots of code was touched, but if you wish to pretend it is 'original', then you are only deceiving yourself.

[bendib]

Constructive replies here, at last.

raycast: comparative criticism of 239 is usually pretty vague, while support for 31 is usually of the "better than it was" variety. The point I press is in part rhetorical - comparing generalities - so that I can always argue that, taken as a whole, the targeting, movement, and the render (NOT the terrains) in 31 are manifestly inferior to those in 239. I stick to this argument because it seems to me that either there is not the will or the possibility that the inadequacies of 31 in these areas can be corrected. The unit movement, for example, is now workable, but it looks contrived and piecemeal. Borgs gather in columns, three to a row, and here and there a borg will pirouette in an utterly pointless way - simply because of the make-do quality of that particular arrangement. Look, even back in the 90s you could gather an army of 50/60 soldiers in a Settler release and they would jostle about quite realistically and then move forward in a tidy bunch when needed. The underlying problem in 31, it seems to my layman's eye, is that the limitations of the renderer (and perhaps the tiling itself) does not allow such flexibility in movement. Units cannot even pass between diagonally placed structures! Thus movement in 31 will never achieve the fluency - what Per himself described as "polished" - of 239. And that for me is a failure in the project.

What you say about targeting gave me pause. But consider what kind of defense/offense arrangements would be available? Each weapon placement would need to be isolated by a set amount, so that dormant towers/hps could not be taken out - remember, crucially, that mobile units are not subject to the same limitation. The arrangement I described above had tried to take the pecularities of the new targeting system into account, but as before one rush of heavy tracks wiped everything out. "Closest alone shoots" is simply inadequate to WZ gameplay as it is. Would you consider limiting mobiles in the same way? Think of the micromanagement, for one thing. No other RTS has this kind of targeting and never will. It is a silly, poorly considered innovation undertaken because someone had a bright idea and was allowed to follow it through.

More generally: It's obvious that much of the dev of wz has been aimed at improving mp, and it would seem that 31 has been a big improvement in that area. At the same time the operation of the game has been modernised in the areas of audio and graphics (screen size and render). I greeted the inception of 31 with enthusiasm, which was at first tempered by the very apparent limitation in the render, which lies at the heart of most of the problems to do with movement, and in the tiles themselves (poor definition). There has been a lot of fiddling to improve things, but I now think that the renderer simply does not do a good job and that it should be replaced (without knowing what would be involved). When the new targeting system is added to this situation, you have a game which is seriously handicapped in its gameplay.

I came to admire WZ through years of hard play with the original 110 game. I have seen the playability of the game improve enormously, while the actual gameplay weaken bit by bit through successive rebalances - to the point where mods are now required in order to breathe at least a little life into the game. I am grateful that I can still play the original game by means of a mod under 239, and that I have finally got back the ability to survive 7 hour struggles in hard mode. There is no way that this will be possible with 31 or its derivatives. Whatever 31 is, it is not Warzone 2100. An mp app, perhaps, with too much AI and research.

Should I accept this?

My fork is based on 3.1 beta 11, but I am aimed very heavily at maintaining 2.3.9-style balance. As far as unit movement, I have re-added the ability for cyborgs to walk through tanks, which was present in 2.3.x, which makes it a good bit nicer for unit clusters. The map and AI selectors have been overhauled to support more maps, I have added functional spectator support, super transport now carries 10 tanks regardless of small/med/large but costs much more, hardcrete structures that did not require hardcrete, for example, have been fixed, and super medium cannon cyborg is no longer deprecated by HPV superborg, to name a handful of the changes.

zydonk, if you are that frustrated, I'd love to get your feedback and input for Warzone 2100 Legacy. Windows builds are available for snapshot "microwave" releases.

My github: https://github.com/Subsentient/wz2100legacy
Soon-to-be Warzone 2100 Legacy homepage: http://universe2.us/wzlegacy

[Per]

Bendib, whatever you do to your fork is off topic to this thread, which is about 3.1 rc 3.

[zydonk]

...

If the netcode can be isolated from the rest of 31, could that not be grafted onto 239, and then a new branch started that could then encapsulate other real improvements achieved in 31? I know the 31 tiles do not render well in 239, but that seems a problem with definition only.

...

Fine, if you provide a simple patch which successfully grafts 3.1's netcode onto 2.3.9 by the end of this week, we can release it as 2.3.10.

Do you confuse sarcasm with irony, or vicy-versy?

I came to admire WZ through years of hard play with the original 110 game. I have seen the playability of the game improve enormously, while the actual gameplay weaken bit by bit through successive rebalances - to the point where mods are now required in order to breathe at least a little life into the game. I am grateful that I can still play the original game by means of a mod under 239, and that I have finally got back the ability to survive 7 hour struggles in hard mode. There is no way that this will be possible with 31 or its derivatives. Whatever 31 is, it is not Warzone 2100. An mp app, perhaps, with too much AI and research.

Should I accept this?

Nope, your wrong. The 1.10 mod can only do so much, and all it does is bring the stats over that were originally used. However, that still don't make it anywhere near the same gameplay as was in 1.10. Lots of code was touched, but if you wish to pretend it is 'original', then you are only deceiving yourself.

I know, but it is near enough compared, say, with 239 or 31 vanilla.

I assume the answer otherwise is take it or leave it.

[Lord Apocalypse]

...

If the netcode can be isolated from the rest of 31, could that not be grafted onto 239, and then a new branch started that could then encapsulate other real improvements achieved in 31? I know the 31 tiles do not render well in 239, but that seems a problem with definition only.

...

Fine, if you provide a simple patch which successfully grafts 3.1's netcode onto 2.3.9 by the end of this week, we can release it as 2.3.10.

Sounds like a challenge. But is it as easy as some believe?? May have to look and find out.. but is it really worth it in the longrun

Bendib, whatever you do to your fork is off topic to this thread, which is about 3.1 rc 3.

Mostly true per, though if zydonk is unhappy with the current level of progress with WZ then there are other options such as Bendibs fork as well as mine.

Sadly, 10,000 downloads hasn't seemed to translate much into forum posts, likes/dislikes, bug reports, etc. so it is hard to judge if zydonk is in a minority or majority with his complaints about how 3.1 is turning out. Yes, 3.1 has its problems that need to be addressed but who is here to really do the dirty work that no one wants to touch. There are plenty of resources on the net to look over that can be applied to any given situation in the WZ dev cycle to do this or that.

I myself may not be thrilled with the direction this project has taken some things but overall the game looks much better than it did in 99. WZ has its issues, but at least people are still willing to work on a decade old game.

Zydonk, start a new thread with detailed reports on what you like/dislike. It will make discussing issues that others may agree with you on much easier to go over for the devs on what has the highest priority after bugs. Simple enough??

[bendib]

Mostly true per, though if zydonk is unhappy with the current level of progress with WZ then there are other options such as Bendibs fork as well as mine.

Thanks. I posted that because zydonk was unhappy and I wanted to provide an alternative.

[raycast]

Think of the poor kittens!

[zydonk]

Think of the poor kittens!

And for a moment I believed you might take the situation seriously. What planet do you people live on? Don't you even take a little pride in your work?

[zydonk]

Zydonk, start a new thread with detailed reports on what you like/dislike. It will make discussing issues that others may agree with you on much easier to go over for the devs on what has the highest priority after bugs. Simple enough??

I think that would make me appear as a crank. It's not simply a matter of like or dislike, more of what adds to WZ and what detracts from it. I have already made my points in that matter, so I assume everyone who's interested in the fate of WZ already knows about them. And remember others have raised the same concerns, including many who seem not too happy with the mp side - of which I know nothing.

It seems to me as a layman that 239 was a culmination of a line of development and that to go further would require more fundamental changes. I think the temptation to make more than one of these changes at the time of the creation of the new line 3.0 must have been very great. Introducing both the netcode and a new renderer at the same time led to a huge workload in dealing both with bugs and in trying to iron out very real problems with the render. Yet, despite the burden of these issues, they continue to make significant changes to the gameplay. Now we have reached the stage where there is simply not the will to resolve this complex and messy situation.

OK, I know all the answers to the above, having read them many times. Nonetheless that is the situation and it is a real one. 3.1 is not going anywhere - no one will have the gall to make an final release of what is there now: it would make a laughing stock of WZ, with its gammy movements and absurd targeting, not forgetting all the other issues those with different experiences of the betas and RCs have reported over and over again. (I concentrate on the movement and targeting issues because I think they are in themselves sufficient to call 3.1 into question.)

With all respects to it dedicated members, the dev needs some kind of oversight - a steering group drawn from within the dev, for instance - and a definite policy on what can be achieved.

What Bendip has in mind intrigues me - not for nostalgia's sake but because he may attempt to do what should have been done here from the beginning: bring forward the original great game in its own form as much as possible. Any rebalances and AI changes could then be offered in the form of mods, much as was done with the original release. Consider - and I say this with respect for present day modders - that there has been no mod yet which does as much to being out the potential of WZ as troman's Aivolution. I will support him as best I can - probably whinger in chief - and I would suggest others consider doing likewise. Perhaps WZ Legacy is WZ v4.0, with 3.n consigned to history and rumour as a lesson to us all.

[raycast]

It seems to me as a layman that 239 was a culmination of a line of development and that to go further would require more fundamental changes. I think the temptation to make more than one of these changes at the time of the creation of the new line 3.0 must have been very great. Introducing both the netcode and a new renderer at the same time led to a huge workload in dealing both with bugs and in trying to iron out very real problems with the render. Yet, despite the burden of these issues, they continue to make significant changes to the gameplay. Now we have reached the stage where there is simply not the will to resolve this complex and messy situation.

Yes, you are right, you are a layman.

To me it appears as if 2.39 was a dead end without doing some major changes. And when you break compatibility, you might as well fix all that you would like to fix at the same time. That is why the next version was called "3" and not "2.4.0".

It is common best practise to redo a couple of design decisions when stepping from one major version to the next. And AFAICT the developers did a great job on that.

OK, I know all the answers to the above, having read them many times. Nonetheless that is the situation and it is a real one. 3.1 is not going anywhere

Oh sure it is. 3.1 is going to replace all previous WZ versions soon. We are at rc3 now, so I expect the final 3.1 to come out this year, at which point 2.x will be dead. Because I see no benefit in using the 2.x versions. Seriously, who is still using 2.x?

Oh, I forgot. Some people like cyborgs walking through walls and tanks (2.x) and consider that an essential gameplay feature. Oh, those poor kittens!

With all respects to it dedicated members, the dev needs some kind of oversight - a steering group drawn from within the dev, for instance - and a definite policy on what can be achieved.

You cannot put policy on volunteeers. Unless you pay them, at which point they aren't volunteers anymore. And seriously, the "classic" (whatever) WZ is dead. It has a single developer, bendib, which also had abandoned it for some time...

So please, think of the kittens.

And for a moment I believed you might take the situation seriously.

No, I cannot take you seriously. Because you only complain, but do not improve anything. I only take people seriously that contribute. Not that I have myself contributed much yet myself.

Please, dead WZ3.x developers. Just continue, and ignore this thread. Thank you.