Confusion - Units are Manned or Unmanned?

[Per]

How do the trucks build when there are no buildings from which to control them? they must be manned.

Maybe that is why there is a truck limit? Not enough people to man them.

[Corporal Punishment]

TVR: The driver's hatch on the Cobra is where you would expect it: On top of the body. You can see the periscope set into it above the crowbar.
Thanks for directing me to the video. But, while the object you claim to be an AI-core is certainly there, the sequence also clearly shows a large windshield. Strange for a robot, eh? And the AI-core-object could really be anything. I'm curious who came up with calling it AI-core. But even if it is such, this does not necessarily mean the vehicle is unmanned, today's tanks also have massive computer capacities but still require a human crew.

Your point number four isn't really valid. Bear in mind the limitations of an RTS game compared to conventional storytelling. Having to consider where to assign the experience of any recycled unit would either place a high level of micromanagement on the player or the software, what means the developers in this case. The same really goes for points one and eight. As far as point two is concerned I can only say where there's war, there's casualties. The mission Beta 9 is an evacuation scenario. The Project rushes to safe as many units as they probably can, from the perspective of the crews on the ground it is not jet decided they will not get away. That most of the forces at Beta base are destroyed is a dramatic element of the background story, which is linear and predetermined only from the players point of view.

[JDW]

For anyone who's going to use the definition of the term Cyborg to prove a point, you must first have a look at some interesting tidbits about Cyborgs in the wikipedia...

Real (as opposed to fictional) cyborgs are more frequently people who use cybernetic technology to repair or overcome the physical and mental constraints of their bodies.

The 1970s television series The Six Million Dollar Man featured one of the most famous fictional cyborgs.

Bruce Sterling in his universe of Shaper/Mechanist suggested an idea of alternative cyborg called Lobster, which is made not by using internal implants, but by using an external shell (e.g. a Powered Exoskeleton). Unlike human cyborgs that appear human externally while being synthetic internally, a Lobster looks inhuman externally but contains a human internally.

One of the earliest uses of the term was by Manfred E. Clynes and Nathan S. Kline in 1960 to refer to their conception of an enhanced human being who could survive in extraterrestrial environments.

The New York Times had printed:
A cyborg is essentially a man-machine system in which the control mechanisms of the human portion are modified externally by drugs or regulatory devices so that the being can live in an environment different from the normal one.

Generally, the term "cyborg" is used to refer to a man or woman with bionic, or robotic, implants.

In 2004, under the heading Bridging the Island of the Colourblind Project, a British and completely colorblind artist, Neil Harbisson, had an eyeborg installed on his head in order to hear colors. His prosthetic device was included within his passport photograph as confirmation of its permanent and embedded cyborg status.

In medicine, there are two important and different types of cyborgs: these are the restorative and the enhanced. Restorative technologies “restore lost function, organs, and limbs”. The key aspect of restorative cyborgization is the repair of broken or missing processes to revert to a healthy or average level of function. There is no enhancement to the original faculties and processes that were lost.
On the contrary, the enhanced cyborg “follows a principle, and it is the principle of optimal performance: maximising output (the information or modifications obtained) and minimising input (the energy expended in the process) ”. Thus, the enhanced cyborg intends to exceed normal processes or even gain new functions that were not originally present.

The continued technological development of bionic and nanotechnologies begins to raise the question of enhancement, and of the future possibilities for cyborgs which surpass the original functionality of the biological model.

DARPA has announced its interest in developing "cyborg insects" to transmit data from sensors implanted into the insect during the pupal stage. The insect's motion would be controlled from a MEMS, or Micro-Electro-Mechanical System, and would conceivably surveil an environment and detect explosives or gas.

Similarly, DARPA is developing a neural implant to remotely control the movement of sharks. The shark's unique senses would be exploited to provide data feedback in relation to enemy ship movement and underwater explosives.

Eventually researchers plan to develop HI-MEMS for dragonflies, moths, beetles, bees, sharks, rats, and even pigeons.

Examples of fictional biologically based cyborgs include Robocop, Replicants, Star Trek's Borg and Star Wars' Darth Vader, as well as Luke Skywalker and General Grievous. Mechanically based cyborgs include Cylons, Terminators and the The Grox.

And more about Cybermen in Wikipedia

The Cybermen are a fictional race of cyborgs...

and

Cybermen were originally a wholly organic species of humanoids originating on Earth's twin planet Mondas that began to implant more and more artificial parts into their bodies as a means of self-preservation.

Thus, in the real world, cyborgs are frequently more human than complex machines, as of now. But we are more interested in fiction, as this discussion is about Warzone2100 units.

In the case of fiction, Cyborgs have been given a more human essence in some cases, and a more mechanical one in others. For instance, take the case of Robocop and Terminator. Both are classified as Cyborgs, but have been given contrasting approaches to their creation. Robocop was first man (Alex Murphy) and then machine, whereas Terminator was machine from scratch.

So any argument made using Cyborgs is pointless, as their definition at this moment is very vague.

P.S: Remote-controlled insects and sharks support Zarel's opinion of how he imagines his units as being remote-controlled from HQ.

[Verin]

Manned because they have experience, that can be transferred to other tanks if the tank is recycled and the driver saved.

unmanned because they are called droids.


the game contradicts itself.

[JDW]

unmanned because they are called droids.

Good points there Verin. Now, what I am curious about is which part of the game/sequences/comics/online-guide mentions, or refers to, units as "droids"?

[Verin]

That is what i believe is up for debate, I personally think they are manned.

[JDW]

That is what i believe is up for debate, I personally think they are manned.

So you're saying that there is no mention of the word "droids" anywhere in the game/sequences/storyline/comics/guides? I wonder who began the trend of calling units "droids".

I believe Rman Virgil said that they are called "droids" like in game engineering nomenclature.

"Droid" is a software engineering term refering to a mobile game object that can be controlled by A.I. scripting or a human player.

Personally, I used to think that they were called "Bots". But maybe he's right.

[TVR]

... The driver's hatch on the Cobra is where you would expect it ... You can see the periscope set into it above the crowbar. ...

That is not a hatch:
1) That's where the only periscope is mounted, if it were manned by a crew, that would mean the driver can't see anything if the vehicle commander is peeking outside. Absurd design.
2) Hatches are not flush with the chassis, hinges MUST extrude if the hatch is suppose to open outwards. Don't even bother suggesting that hatch opens inwards.
3) Even if that were a hatch, it would be too narrow for any person, look at the length of the crowbar for reference.

But, while the object you claim to be an AI-core is certainly there, the sequence also clearly shows a large windshield. Strange for a robot, eh?

I apply Occam's Razor on any further speculation. Hopefully you understand the function of 'artificial intelligence'.



Storyboard for the factory assembly scene. I feel bad for wasting the Wayback Machine's bandwidth.

... from the perspective of the crews on the ground it is not jet decided they will not get away ...

In the previous mission, a safe haven is established after Gamma Team detects two missile launches in the Rocky Mountain Range, and then it is confirmed that Alpha Base is destroyed by a nuclear explosion.

No man would be willing to remain behind in order to save a vehicle. Otherwise, that trope is called a wallbanger, and it destroys suspension of disbelief.

Manned because they have experience, that can be transferred to other tanks if the tank is recycled and the driver saved.

unmanned because they are called droids.

Each vehicle contains an artificial neural network designed to receive orders from the commander's transport/AWACs and act autonomously on them.

[Zarel]

Now, what I am curious about is which part of the game/sequences/comics/online-guide mentions, or refers to, units as "droids"?

As far as I know, only the source code calls them droids. Tanks, cyborgs, scavenger units, the humans you save in that one Beta mission, transports, and VTOLs are all DROIDs. Trees, rocks, and abandoned structures are FEATUREs. And owned structures are all STRUCTUREs. Those are the three BASE_OBJECT types. I wouldn't ascribe too much meaning to it if I were you.

[JDW]

3) Even if that were a hatch, it would be too narrow for any person, look at the length of the crowbar for reference.

What on earth does an unmanned vehicle, need a crowbar for???

[Saberuneko]

Maintenance.

[Rman Virgil]

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.... The terms Android, Cyborg & Robot or Drone are not synonymous and interchangeable. That's square one..

Let's take another shot at this....

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about the term "Cyborg" in real life science just like there is nothing ambiguous about the word "uranium". I believe in going to primary sources and Wikipedia is secondary, even tertiary, and is not at all strictly vetted or formally peer reviewed. It's a fine enough place to start your research but to begin and end it there is not at all rigorous. Also, the various & contradictory poetic license taken by story tellers in the fictional exploration & use of the concept / term "Cyborg" is certainly valid as entertainment, literary history and philosophical rumination but those still do not supersede the original real life scientific definition.

Cameron's designation of the Terminator as a "cyborg" was just flat-out incorrect based on his very own depiction within the movie. The correct term for the Terminator would have been "Android". Perhaps Cameron just liked the sound of the word "Cyborg" better than "Android", maybe to his artist sensibilities he thought it was cooler or maybe there is much more of a film entertainment history with the word "Cyborg" than with "Android" so it made more marketing sense to cash in on that already built in audience that liked "Cyborgs". That's often the way chit is done in mass media entertainment

Here is a primary, real life science resource for the term "Cyborg" well worth exploring:

http://www.kevinwarwick.com/

.

I do not know why Cathuria's WZ concept art backdrops from a couple years back are still being posted as if they are the work of WZ creators, Pumpkin Studios, from 10+ years ago. The correct Pictorial reference, as already stated more than once here, is Pumpkin's own WZ 2100 Comic from 1999.

Specifically page 4 which I'll post now:



.

And as for the Synaptic Link here is page 6 straight from WZ creators, Pumpkin Studios:




- RV
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[Zarel]

An off-topic conversation was split to Retaining experience upon death

[JDW]

3) Even if that were a hatch, it would be too narrow for any person, look at the length of the crowbar for reference.

What on earth does an unmanned vehicle, need a crowbar for???

Maintenance.

Yes, I agree. But you're missing my point. Why would an Unmanned vehicle require a crowbar unless it has a crew inside?

RV has pointed out, those graphics are not creations of Pumpkin Studios. However, using these images in the base game would be acknowledging their credibility, no matter who the original creators were..

[JDW]

There is absolutely nothing ambiguous about the term "Cyborg" in real life science just like there is nothing ambiguous about the word "uranium".

I absolutely agree with you there when in comes to real-life sciences.

Cameron's designation of the Terminator as a "cyborg" was just flat-out incorrect based on his very own depiction within the movie. The correct term for the Terminator would have been "Android".

Since the movie was pure science fiction, we can always say "it would have been", "it should have been" , or "it could have been". As a storyteller, Cameron's use of the word 'cyborg' could be anything he wanted it to be in his fictional movie.

And so is Warzone2100, a purely fictional story. There's nothing real about it. Thank god for that!