Request: Option to disable new terrain renderer

[Zarel]

You keep saying *should*. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I mean "should" as in "it's possible to". Not having done it myself, I obviously can't comment on how easy it is, or if it's possible at all with our developers, but having seen it done (for instance, with the original Warzone), I can easily say it's possible.

[stiv]

I was referring to this:

but anything more advanced than a cheap cell phone or calculator should be able to handle at least basic 3D without trouble.

It is nice to fantasize about a dream world where everything *should* work, but that is not the world we live in. Products can and do have flaws, both in design and in implementation. We are all familiar with software bugs, but hardware is algorithms implemented in silicon and solder. If you are old enough, you might remember the Pentium floating point bug - an error burned into the processor's microcode, something that *should* work.

I'm beginning to suspect the reason Intel can't provide decent OpenGL support is due to a 'feature' (or lack thereof!) in their chipsets that make it impossible.

Another alternative is they simply don't care. The target market for their low end chipsets is low-power laptops for browsing, email and playing video. As long as they meet those requirements, they are happy.

[Zarel]

It is nice to fantasize about a dream world where everything *should* work, but that is not the world we live in. Products can and do have flaws, both in design and in implementation. We are all familiar with software bugs, but hardware is algorithms implemented in silicon and solder. If you are old enough, you might remember the Pentium floating point bug - an error burned into the processor's microcode, something that *should* work.

...

I'm beginning to suspect the reason Intel can't provide decent OpenGL support is due to a 'feature' (or lack thereof!) in their chipsets that make it impossible.

I doubt this, because their chipsets support OpenGL perfectly in Mac OS X (as I have repeatedly mentioned).

Another alternative is they simply don't care. The target market for their low end chipsets is low-power laptops for browsing, email and playing video. As long as they meet those requirements, they are happy.

Really? Let's pick the Intel GMA X3100, which was the most popular integrated graphics card sold a couple of years ago (and I'm guessing one of the most common currently in use). It supports the latest DirectX games on Windows, as well as the latest OpenGL games on Mac OS X, quite well. In fact, other than Warzone support (and from what I hear, Blender and Quake 3), the only games it has trouble with are really high-end games like Crysis.

I guess my main point is that it takes two to tango - Intel may be lacking in their OpenGL support, but saying that's the only reason we don't support their cards isn't entirely accurate. And it may be unfair to blame Intel for not supporting OpenGL on Windows, which is admittedly rarely used. If we had developers with the skill and time to maintain a DirectX version of the rendering engine, I bet it would work fine on Intel (and probably better on other video cards in Windows, too), but since we don't, the answer to "Why doesn't Warzone work on Windows/Intel?" is as much "We don't have enough time/skills to make it work" as "Intel is too lazy to make OpenGL drivers for Windows".

(Also note that I said "as much" - as in, Intel still deserves some of the blame for their poor drivers.)

[stiv]

I doubt this, because their chipsets support OpenGL perfectly in Mac OS X (as I have repeatedly mentioned).

The belief that Apple has not had problems with Intel chipsets is pure fantasy. OSX Leopard had major problems.

[Zarel]

The belief that Apple has not had problems with Intel chipsets is pure fantasy. OSX Leopard had major problems.

Of all my statements, you nitpick this? :/

Obviously nothing's perfect, but my point is that it does indeed support OpenGL, and I have had no problem playing Warzone or other OpenGL games on OS X.

[stiv]

I would hardly call it a nitpick. From the reports I've seen, while the previous release has some unuseable slowdown issues, some versions of Leopard did not do OpenGL at all on machines with Intel GMA graphics. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

As EvilGuru pointed out, OpenGL is the best solution for a project like WZ. But the bottom line here is that no matter what toolkit you use, you end up at the mercy of the operating system and drivers.

[Per]

Really? Let's pick the Intel GMA X3100, which was the most popular integrated graphics card sold a couple of years ago (and I'm guessing one of the most common currently in use). It supports the latest DirectX games on Windows, as well as the latest OpenGL games on Mac OS X, quite well. In fact, other than Warzone support (and from what I hear, Blender and Quake 3), the only games it has trouble with are really high-end games like Crysis.

I had the X3100 predecessor on my development box for quite a while and did a bit of OpenGL work on it. Much of the reason was that I wanted to support Intel level hardware and its open sourced drivers. It was a nightmare. Anything out of the ordinary would cause a complete system freeze. I do not know if the Windows drivers are equally crappy, either variant of them, but I would suspect that from hearing similar stories from that end.

So we have tried, we really have. We even maintained the software renderer for much longer than we should have, given that we never really had the development resources to keep it updated. If you want us to do more, feel free to put in the work required.