Terrain Textures

[DuKe2112]

wow zarel fixed the link faster then i could complain, thanks (;

[MaNGusT]

wz2100_shot_017.png

[Olrox]

wz2100_shot_017.png

Well, certainly doesn't look like arizona cliffs, but doesn't look quite horrible anyway, IMO.

~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

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I'm not sure how much of a factor the new terrain renderer plays in creating smoothly rounded curves to the landscape. In Arizona where Cliffs arise the landscape is angular hard-edged - a combination of the sedimentary geological morphology and weathering over the eons.

There is also the legacy map consideration - that is, what commitment is there to re-working those maps ?

The angular hard-edged cliff topography effect may only be possible with 3D Feature modeling the way the terrain renderer works -but perhaps this is just a case of experimenting some more with the 2D texture approach and getting closer to an angular hard-edged illusion - which is essentially what perspective painters developed to a grand art during the High Renaissance like the landscape background in Leonardo DaVinci's "Virgin of the Rocks" painting. See HERE

I do think that this first trial effort of yours is on the right path. There is an organic and natural asymmetry associated with weathering that is coming through even at this stage that I do believe is an advance over the symmetric, artificial look of the original textures.

Regards, RV
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[MaNGusT]

I've tired of trials to make a good cliffs texture that will look good from the every side. The only way to make that is to make a texture which doesn't need to be rotated.

I will continue to work on others textures.

[lav_coyote25]

wz2100_shot_017.png

looks great. dunno why you would say it looks bad...

[MaNGusT]

looks great. dunno why you would say it looks bad...

Because it looks like a flat picture without a fake relief.

[Rman Virgil]

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looks great. dunno why you would say it looks bad...

Because it looks like a flat picture without a fake relief.

Chiaroscuro... is really the best technique to create fake relief in 2D and very challenging to execute in this instance because it has to be done over existing 3D geometry that is being smoothed-out by the terrain renderer. You are achieving it in some areas well ... in others not so much. I have not worked with Trunk so I'm only going by gut reaction to the screen captures but what I'm thinking is the Chiaroscuro technique has be dominant in the vertical illusion with any horizontal crafting being minimal, fragmented, scattered and mostly not intersecting with the vertical technique. Again, that's just a gut reaction.

Regards, RV
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[DuKe2112]

Well it's probably the best texture so far. Could you upload?

[Olrox]

Chiaroscuro... is really the best technique to create fake relief in 2D and very challenging to execute in this instance because it has to be done over existing 3D geometry that is being smoothed-out by the terrain renderer. You are achieving it in some areas well ... in others not so much. I have not worked with Trunk so I'm only going by gut reaction to the screen captures but what I'm thinking is the Chiaroscuro technique has be dominant in the vertical illusion with any horizontal crafting being minimal, fragmented, scattered and mostly not intersecting with the vertical technique. Again, that's just a gut reaction.

Regards, RV
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The problem is that the textures can't be rotated, from what I could understand. That makes the production of coherently illuminated, eye-deceiving relief effects on 2d textures almost impossible, if not entirely impossible.
I mean - if you walk in a straight line through cliffs, the texture you see below you is exactly the same whether you are going up/down. For example, you are going up: you see darker effects first (whoa, the inclination looks larger, since light comes from the sky above), and after a while, you see lighter effects (yeah, now the inclination looks smaller, since the light hits the surface more directly). When you reach the other side and are going down, you see a darker effect first (what? the inclination should be smaller in the beginning) and then lighter effects again (no way, this is looking weird).

This is not the worst, since if you turn left/right and go up/down a cliff, the pattern will look tilted 90 degrees. If you have vertical crevasses back and forth, you'll have horizontal crevasses left and right, which is incoherently considering geomorphology.

That's why I thought about the normal or bump mapping. Then, we could make those cracks/crevasses in a homogeneous pattern in all directions (which would be hard to make look good), but at least we won't have the illumination issues. If the textures could be rotated, then we wouldn't have most of these problems

~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

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@ Olrox: Thank you for taking the time to explain - I had not a clue as to the workings & constraints of the new terrain renderer. I guess there are some tradeoffs here. I do know that Cliff-face done as 3D Feature models using the photo above to create the textures and laid over your inclines in the Map Editor looks awesome with the stock game renderer.

- Regards, RV
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[Olrox]

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@ Olrox: Thank you for taking the time to explain - I had not a clue as to the workings & constraints of the new terrain render. I guess there are some tradeoffs. I do know that Cliff-face done as 3D models using the photo above to create the textures looks awesome with the stock renderer.

- Regards, RV
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Yeah, I've seen some of those, they look really awesome . But that would require either to have all the maps with fixed height differences in cliffs, which is very undesirable, or have similar stretching as in current defensive structures' bases, which is also very undesirable due to drastical performance losses (I think there would be). Or is there another way that I didn't think about to implement those feature-like cliffs, that doesn't have those problems?

hmmm, those cliffs will yet cause quite some more discussion, I think

~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

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@ Olrox: Yea the legacy map issue always comes into play.

I have done zero experimentation with the New Terrain Renderer so I cannot say anything really.

But I did a lot of experimenting with the stock renderer and let me tell you there are some really cool effects as a direct result of the deformation you bring up.

One quick way to see this is to make a 3D rock formation feature model out of boulder 1, 2 3 or 4 in the Arizona set that fills a tile and goes vertical 1 tile - (and is NOT designed to be placed against inclined terrain but rather free standing) place it in the map editor & deform it with the elevation tool. I got some really cool results that way and also doing these models in close clusters (swapping out the 4 stock GFX).... What's also neat is that this particular technique allows for destructible terrain which you control by your stat assignment to the feature model.

Also - going in a different direction with this basic technique you can make mucky "swamp" land, bogs, quicksand.....

- RV
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[Rider]

Wouldn't it be awesome if one could align textures along which direction the terrain slopes? That might completely solve this issue. I'm not sure how feasible it would be from a technical standpoint though...

[Olrox]

Wouldn't it be awesome if one could align textures along which direction the terrain slopes? That might completely solve this issue. I'm not sure how feasible it would be from a technical standpoint though...

I think that for cliff textures this might just hit the spot, if possible. For other textures it wouldn't be necessary, I think.

~Olrox