Re: Underpowered Anti-Air
Posted: 14 Aug 2009, 18:47
That would be the Russians in the battle for Stalingrad. Tanks were taken out by AA flak cannons.
No, AA has been like this since 1.10.Deus Siddis wrote:Hmm, maybe I've got the names confused, or maybe I've lost track in all the rebalances.
I had thought, that after the hurricane, you got two actually effective AA batteries, one with long range and splash damage and the other with such a high fire rate that it did more DPS.
Erm, compare the price of marines with goliaths. Goliaths are mainly designed for AA. That they have a gun that's marginally useful for attacking ground units is pretty minor.Deus Siddis wrote:No the Goliath is an excellent ground vs ground unit. Before broodwar introduced medics, I used it in place of marines for all offensive missions (any role not involving shooting from the safety of a bunker). And if there is any danger of High Templar or Guardians, Goliaths are still the far superior choice.
Erm... MG/laser have a 60% multiplier. Borg rockets/missiles have an 80% multiplier, which I note is the same multiplier dedicated AA will get. MG might be a bit weak, but lasers and borg rockets/missiles are excellent anti-air weapons.Deus Siddis wrote:That's not nearly enough of the massive weapon tree to make a difference, but even more importantly those aren't damaging enough against VTOLs to make any difference. They just have too much (totally unrealistic, btw) damage reduction versus air.
Goliaths cost twice the minerals that marines do, but they have:Zarel wrote: Erm, compare the price of marines with goliaths. Goliaths are mainly designed for AA. That they have a gun that's marginally useful for attacking ground units is pretty minor.
Borg rockets are powerful, I give you that, only they fire slow and rarely hit anything, which makes them no more effective than the machine gun. Plus that is only borgs, not missiles in general, which is an extremely narrow category that makes up a very small contingent of any balanced force.Erm... MG/laser have a 60% multiplier. Borg rockets/missiles have an 80% multiplier, which I note is the same multiplier dedicated AA will get. MG might be a bit weak, but lasers and borg rockets/missiles are excellent anti-air weapons.
You've forgotten a few things:Deus Siddis wrote:Goliaths cost twice the minerals that marines do, but they have:
2X Ground Firepower
3X+ Air Firepower (+ Extreme Range)
3X+ Hit Points !
I haven't forgotten, those just aren't things worth considering, imo:Zarel wrote: You've forgotten a few things:
Vespane is renewable and almost always plentiful.1. 50 Vespene
Ghosts and Firebats do only 25% damage against everything except other infantry, which makes marines your only anti-armor-air-structure infantry. They are the "missile borgs" of Starcraft. But Goliaths just do their job better most of the time.2. Marines aren't dedicated ground-to-ground either
Cool.Also, I was planning on rebalancing AA anyway, so no need to worry about it.
And against a full ground assault, would you pick goliaths or siege tanks?Deus Siddis wrote:And since Goliaths do 2.5X more damage to non-infantry versus the Vulture, their only competition for ground-to-ground combat is from the Siege Tank in its tank mode.
Sounds like nerfing the strength of using VTOL's due to the people who slack off at integrating AA into their defences and prefer ground only combat. Plus if people dont bother w/using especially researching upgrades to AA then they deserve the punishment VTOL's can dish out. "Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness." Just my two cents that I think it's more the player that needs to adjust to using or not using VTOL's in Skirmish.Deus Siddis wrote:We could finally start to get away from VTOLs being considered the "trick you use when your opponent hasn't invested in dedicated AA".
Fun too and there used to be a glitch to make tanks with heap bombs bay back in the 1.xx days Also the VTOL versions of the lancer, cannon, rail gun, etc were pretty overpowered when this glitch was used.Avestron wrote:Plasmite bombs 'are' deadly. ^_^;;;
Actually I've played one on one games when I've specialized in AA guns (skipping the hurricane) (and units) because I knew the opponent would rush for VTOL tech. I'd have a nice defensive line and the VTOLs would just smash them (and thats with MG-focus - rolling out the first assault gunners as the thermite bombs start dropping... and the funny thing would be that the assault gunners would be more effective (strange that cyborg machine gunners don't attack air targets))Haku wrote:Sorry if I come off as rude but its just when someone doesn't invest in something such as anti-tank or anti-air weapons it shouldn't really require a nerf when there is adequate AA defences available and w/new updates more weapons that can act as secondary AA defences.
If I was only going to be attacked by ground forces I would build 'Tanks, unless they were mostly infantry.Zarel wrote: And against a full ground assault, would you pick goliaths or siege tanks?
The Goliath is a versatility focused unit with a medium general purpose ground attack and a heavy air attack, for its cost.My entire point is that the goliath isn't a ground-to-ground unit with a small air attack, it's a ground-to-air with a small ground attack.
AA is the poster child for over-specialization. Nothing else is that limited.Haku wrote:Sounds like nerfing the strength of using VTOL's due to the people who slack off at integrating AA into their defences and prefer ground only combat. Plus if people dont bother w/using especially researching upgrades to AA then they deserve the punishment VTOL's can dish out. "Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness." Just my two cents that I think it's more the player that needs to adjust to using or not using VTOL's in Skirmish.
Agreed. Let's end here; I feel kind of silly arguing StarCraft gameplay on the Warzone forums.Deus Siddis wrote:The Goliath is a versatility focused unit with a medium general purpose ground attack and a heavy air attack, for its cost.
Yeah, well, it'll still fall to a few Stormies.dragoncrusher wrote:armor upgrade =)
its like i can send 1 vtol with the medium black body, and it can survive agains 5 or more vidicator missile =)
pretty much, once you research everything in MP, your VTOL is GOD!!
I'd probably increase their speed to match. I'm planning on doing the same to machinegun, for the same reason.Andreas XXL wrote:I did not read the whole thread but I think Rocket anti air is nearly useless.
For example there are many enemy VTOLs comming to your base and you have a lot of anti air Rockets.
They aim at the first VTOL in range and begin to fire. (The rockets are not so fast as the anti air guns).
So it tankes some time until the first rocket hits the first VTOL.
In this time the other anti air rockets fire too. But the aim at the same VTOL, because it is the first in range.
So nearly all anti air Rockets are fired to the first VTOL.
This VTOL will be destroyed. but it takes long time to reload the anti air Rockets.
In this time the VTOL attack your base and the anti air defence can't do anything.