Confusion - Units are Manned or Unmanned?

[cybersphinx]

Just rename it to Zombiezone 2100 and declare all units to be zombie-controlled. Problem solved.

[Iluvalar]

here, i'll decide for you :

Cyborgs are biological and mechanical mix. It's the definition of cyborgs itself. So unless someone want to argue that it is a cat inside, I will guess that there is some human parts inside.

Droids is the diminutive of "androids" which is a humanoid robot. I guess those bots have quantum brain, that make it impossible to share experience trough any analogical connexion. So they die with their discoveries.

[Emdek]

Cyborgs are biological and mechanical mix. It's the definition of cyborgs itself. So unless someone want to argue that it is a cat inside, I will guess that there is some human parts inside.

Yes, but campaign videos also says about immersion tanks, for what those are used then?

[cybersphinx]

Droids is the diminutive of "androids" which is a humanoid robot.

But in "droid", the part referring to "man" is mostly removed, and use of that form isn't limited to humanoid robots.

[ciarson]

for me, it's manned even if the crew is small ( the driver and 1 to 2 people for reload and calibration ,this number can be reduced to only the driver with the automated reloading and targeting, and the synaptic link).

first reason.

imagine a F-16 fighter bomber, it's stuffed with electronics but need a man to pilot it. Yet, with a certain program ,"Nexus intruder" for example, you can make it remote controlled, so the pilot can't do a think to stop it, not even self-destruct or eject.

for the tanks in Warzone2100, i don't think it's different.

second reason.

the synaptic link is dangerous, as you gain control of a computer with your mind, you may lose your mind in the computer if the link is cut abruptly. so i think their is some limitation that make this impossible, but Nexus manage to break those limitation as he said : "I'm now activating all your synaptic links so that your forces can meld with Nexus."

Nexus itself is not an AI, since it got the consciousness of Allan Reeds trapped in it. It's more like a program controlled directly from within by Allan Reed' consciousness. therefore, every synaptic link user that got their limitation broken are trapped in their tanks and got no other choice than work under the control of Reeds' consciousness and do as he please or being eradicated by him as if they were a virus in a computer, making the "Nexus Army" an autocratic army directed only by Allan Reeds.

third reason.

I don't believe that the empty military base they found has advanced technology inside like AI but got no basic technology as canon or flamer. I think they just found a garrison with a few working transport, some MG tanks and some trucks. so they manned every vehicle they got, secure their main base and send three teams to find out pre-collapse artifact and potential survivors.

any clever commander would have done so. "who ever don't go forward go backward" dixit Richelieu.

[Rman Virgil]

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Cyborgs are biological and mechanical mix. It's the definition of cyborgs itself. So unless someone want to argue that it is a cat inside, I will guess that there is some human parts inside.

Yes, but campaign videos also says about immersion tanks, for what those are used then?

Here's the fictional trope definition and origin of the word "droid".

Pay close attention to the last half (& last sentence in particular) which speaks to the question you raise & which I answered in my last post but will reproduce in sequence here so the storytelling logic is clearer along with the derived GPMs.

Droids are robotic machines, as found in Star Wars films, books and television series. Mostly created for Star Wars by Special Effects worker John Stears, the term is a clipped form of android.[1] The word"droid" is a registered trademark of Lucasfilm Ltd. [2][3][4] Droids (sometimes also 'droids, short for androids), were robots: mechanical beings, often possessing artificial intelligence. They were used in a variety of roles and environments, often those considered too menial or too dangerous for humans and other species.

Droids were also used in fields that required extensive specialization and knowledge, such as medical droids and astromech droids. Depending on the model and its corresponding purpose, droids were totally obedient, rugged, expendable, capable of vast memory recall, and mathematically precise.

These characteristics made them well suited for many jobs, though the lack of independent thought in the cheaper, less advanced models limited their capability. This lack of autonomy was simultaneously a vast asset and a glaring weakness—an asset in terms of obedience and control but a massive drawback in terms of effectiveness.

Designers faced a fundamental paradox—make the droids overly intelligent, and they might rebel; yet make the droids not intelligent enough and they would be ineffectual.

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Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droid_(robot)

Pumpkin's narrative SOLUTION to that last statement was inspired by Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" SciFi novel and explains the fictional rationale behind the Campaign & comic book immersion tank sequence.... and this in turn brings us us back to my last post.

Rman Virgil, personally I think that this should be decided once for all.

As in case of only one type of units being controlled remotely (exclusively tanks / VTOLs or exclusively cyborgs) then separate experience preserving rules could be applied (why destroyed units should loose all experience if their operators are still alive?), at least in theory (as there could be complications, like what to do when cyborg factory gets destroyed?).

I agree with your interpretation because it is consistent with "Ender's Game" - but I don't know how that can be decided once and for all...

Plus....here's a fly in the ointment.

Where are the bodies that are remotely controlling armor & Vtols?

Logically HQ fits the bill (Commander bodies in the CC). But if that is the case then the GPM that follows logically would be that if your HQ is destroyed your army (except for Borg, possibly) is dead in the water, kinda like killing the King in Chess. Can you imagine the uproar over that GPM by MPers?

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Following this story logic, and translating it into GPMs, unit experience should NOT be lost upon the unit's destruction because it belongs to the remote human operator in the HQ or CRC and therefore should only be lost with the destruction of those structures. This would make for a richer, deeper, more immersive, gaming experience, IMHO.

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[Giani]

for me, it's manned even if the crew is small ( the driver and 1 to 2 people for reload and calibration ,this number can be reduced to only the driver with the automated reloading and targeting, and the synaptic link).

first reason.

imagine a F-16 fighter bomber, it's stuffed with electronics but need a man to pilot it. Yet, with a certain program ,"Nexus intruder" for example, you can make it remote controlled, so the pilot can't do a think to stop it, not even self-destruct or eject.

for the tanks in Warzone2100, i don't think it's different.

second reason.

the synaptic link is dangerous, as you gain control of a computer with your mind, you may lose your mind in the computer if the link is cut abruptly. so i think their is some limitation that make this impossible, but Nexus manage to break those limitation as he said : "I'm now activating all your synaptic links so that your forces can meld with Nexus."

Nexus itself is not an AI, since it got the consciousness of Allan Reeds trapped in it. It's more like a program controlled directly from within by Allan Reed' consciousness. therefore, every synaptic link user that got their limitation broken are trapped in their tanks and got no other choice than work under the control of Reeds' consciousness and do as he please or being eradicated by him as if they were a virus in a computer, making the "Nexus Army" an autocratic army directed only by Allan Reeds.

third reason.

I don't believe that the empty military base they found has advanced technology inside like AI but got no basic technology as canon or flamer. I think they just found a garrison with a few working transport, some MG tanks and some trucks. so they manned every vehicle they got, secure their main base and send three teams to find out pre-collapse artifact and potential survivors.

any clever commander would have done so. "who ever don't go forward go backward" dixit Richelieu.

Yeah, i think they are controled by humans and remote controled too.
But why do you mention the AIs?

[Emdek]

Following this story logic, and translating it into GPMs, unit experience should NOT be lost upon the unit's destruction because it belongs to the remote human operator in the HQ or CRC and therefore should only be lost with the destruction of those structures. This would make for a richer, deeper, more immersive, gaming experience, IMHO.

Yes, exactly that would be that difficulty.
So, apparently all units are manned currently, as otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all.

This is probably last missing piece in my commanders vision, like we could have two main types of them.

• cheaper manned ones, not requiring CRC (or still functioning when that building gets lost) and loosing their experience;
• more expensive ones, available after researching synaptic link, remotely controlled from from CRC (maybe using modules? as signal amplifiers? or maybe even requiring separate transmitters in field before researching satellite uplink?), not loosing their experience when destroyed (unless CRC gets destroyed).

I'll rethink that ore and hopefully finally post that in dedicated topic.

[Rman Virgil]

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@ Emdek: "Ore" is a good choice of words because this totally original part of WZ is like a barely mined vein of pure gold in terms RTS GPMs.

Also - the underlined portion of the Droid Paradox is insight into NEXUS (& its source inspiration, "SKYNET", from the "Terminator" movies.)

Designers faced a fundamental paradox—make the droids overly intelligent, and they might rebel; yet make the droids not intelligent enough and they would be ineffectual.

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Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droid_(robot)

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[Jorzi]

This reminds me of an old game: original war
Anyone here played it?
It's game mechanic was based on a scenario where you have a very limited number of human charachters, each gaining experience in various areas. Vehicles could be built with either computer, remote control or human steering. Human steering had the best performance of course, while computer-based units perform very poorly in the early stages. With remote control, the experience of the driver was divided evenly between vehicles.

[Rman Virgil]

This reminds me of an old game: original war

Anyone here played it?

It's game mechanic was based on a scenario where you have a very limited number of human charachters, each gaining experience in various areas. Vehicles could be built with either computer, remote control or human steering. Human steering had the best performance of course, while computer-based units perform very poorly in the early stages. With remote control, the experience of the driver was divided evenly between vehicles.

Never even heard of it till now. I was intrigued so I looked it up. More interest after reading the GPM details. Found a D/L & will check it out. The apemen cinched the deal.

Thanks for the heads up.

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[Jorzi]

Ah yes, the apemen Good stuff.
Unfortunately the main fault with the game was that it was quite slow and tedious. Still, worth trying out

[Rman Virgil]

Ah yes, the apemen Good stuff.
Unfortunately the main fault with the game was that it was quite slow and tedious. Still, worth trying out

Faults can be valuable. Like learning from mistakes - unforgettable lessons. The school of hard knocks, we call it over here. It will be worth it, I'm sure.

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[Rman Virgil]

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"Original War" lesson: Reinforces the direction already underway for Commander enhancements ~ never lose sight that all changes are geared to expanding the depth & breath of the in-theater, mental & visceral, combat experience.

That said....

This game's design and history are thoroughly compelling. The back story is wildly original as is its merging of RPG elements into the RTS framework through its experience boon GPMs.

After it's initial release in 2001 it went through patch v.1.03 then lay dormant for years until 2005 when Stuart "Stucuk" Carey asked the publisher if he could continue development & they said sure. The most recent patch is v.1.12.7 released March 5, 2012! ! Amazing. Truly.

Thanks again Jorzi. Rewarding all the way around.

- Regards, Rman
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[iap]

This is a very interesting discussion.

In my opinion, all the units are AI controlled, and for two reasons, one is based on reality, and other is on the game itself:
When terminator, star wars and star trek was written, autonomic AI was a pure fiction. Today, however, this is a very different story. With genetic algorithms, cloud sourcing, clustering and neural networks simulations, there are already vehicles, robots, helicopters and weapons with self discipline (Or how do you call a robot that decides his own commands?).
Terminator's "skynet" was fictional in 1989 when the first film was out. Now IT IS REAL.

As I see it, in 2100 the war WILL look like warzone2100, and everything will be AI controlled.

Now for the game based reasoning:
The research path is computer intelligence oriented. After all, first you get the weapon, then you get better targeting upgrade (AI), then another weapon based on it (combination of better AI and new weapon) etc. You get a sensor first (AI + radar), then you can attach units to it (AI) then you get a commander (AI), witch with experience can command more and more units. etc. etc.

Yeah, all of witch can be done by humans - but not as it like in the game.

Final thought: If all the units are AI controlled, then this is a VERY GOOD IN GAME EXPLANATION to units keep bumping into each other, going back and forth from the repair facility, so there is no need to fix it.

Final final thought: But I guess that in the research labs and HQ there are some humans...