Some criticism

[Kamaze]

Kicking this topic back to Help/Troubleshooting, since I don't see any relation to Project Feedback.

[Mysteryem]

Kamaze, I think he's mainly complaining about the project, the way things are done and the state of the game etc.

[Zarel]

Moving back to feedback since that's what this is.

He's not asking for help for anything.

[crux]

Moving back to feedback since that's what this is.

He's not asking for help for anything.

I am trying to help you guys release a better game.
for the edit button I could of swore it wasn't there.
no idea what is up with that.

[virgilglyph]

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Let me start off by saying I accept that the following interpretation could be off base.

Zarel will likely speak to this. Maybe some other developers will share their POV on this as well.

My previous posts in this thread have danced around what I'll now make explicit.

Let me define a key term first. Complex Mods entail more than changing GFX. To one degree or an other, in any of a variety of ways, they alter game play from stock.

Making WZ more complex mod friendly was a clearly defined goal between 1999 and 2005.

Ways of making WZ more complex mod friendly have been specifically identified post 2005 and, in all fairness, are part of this project's development road map..

Going forward and code developing these identified ways of making WZ more complex mod friendly are a lot of work and a lot harder than just developing complex modifications directly into the core of the game as it is structurally - probably a lot more fun for the developers in the short term than continuing development of those new mod friendlier structures.

Understandable. We all just wanna have more fun in the work we choose to do as a pass time were no money is involved.

The focus on accommodating GFX Mods is, like mentioned earlier, a savvy strategy.

That said, ghettoizing GPM modders and making it the purview of developer sanctioned development is what's happening and its not a long term sustainable strategy, IMHO, as the downsides are legion.

This is admittedly not a simplistic POV. Nor is my goal to be antagonistic, confrontational or wantonly provocative.

A developer of the new TBT game Star Sentinel Tactics, Phil, wrote an interesting and well balanced essay on this subject last summer which you can read HERE


Maybe the simple answer to all of this is - "Welcome to FOSS development..."

Regards, VG
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[Per]

Ways of making WZ more complex mod friendly have been specifically identified post 2005 and, in all fairness, are part of this project's development road map.

Yes, it has been on our goal for a very long time, and we have really sucked at making it happen. Not just because there were more fun things to do, but also because there many rather non-trivial problems in the way. I think the biggest issue right now is that nobody has taken up work on the map editor. It is still where Qamly abruptly left it a long time ago. Other than that, some important pieces are slowly beginning to fall into place, with transition to a sane scripting system (lua), a new more reliable savegame format, and better mod loading support. This will hopefully come all together in a 3.0 release. Converters will be made available to make the transition for mods.

[Zarel]

Let me define a key term first. Complex Mods entail more than changing GFX. To one degree or an other, in any of a variety of ways, they alter game play from stock.

Making WZ more complex mod friendly was a clearly defined goal between 1999 and 2005.

Ways of making WZ more complex mod friendly have been specifically identified post 2005 and, in all fairness, are part of this project's development road map..

You know, Warzone is perfectly friendly to complex mods. We haven't changed the mod format since 2.1-branch. If you want to retain support, the easiest way is simply to bundle the entirety of what you want to change. i.e. change weapons.txt? Bundle everything that uses it as a dependency - the entire stats/, messages/, and skirmish folders.

To be on the safe side, if you just include the entire mp.wz+base.wz in your mod, it will remain compatible!

[virgilglyph]

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Yes, it has been on our goal for a very long time, and we have really sucked at making it happen. Not just because there were more fun things to do, but also because there many rather non-trivial problems in the way. I think the biggest issue right now is that nobody has taken up work on the map editor. It is still where Qamly abruptly left it a long time ago. Other than that, some important pieces are slowly beginning to fall into place, with transition to a sane scripting system (lua), a new more reliable savegame format, and better mod loading support. This will hopefully come all together in a 3.0 release. Converters will be made available to make the transition for mods.

Thanks Per. Makes sense. Looking forward to those developments. The converters will make continuing work at present reassuring. It's too bad Remus gave up working on EW to focus on his pirate strat game. The changes he made to the EW source code to take it beyond Qamly's 32EW he said were not hard and fairly fast to make. Then again this version Remus worked on was just WIN - cross platform was not at all a consideration. I did pass on this source code to Buggy early last year thinking it could be of use - but I dunno if it was-is. (BTW, Qamly would have continued work on 32EW had he not been struck down with a fatal illness. And, truth be told, the 32EW source was NOT lost as has been commonly spoken for years but.... well, that's another story and it may just have well been lost since it's not forthcoming intact from that running HD. Needless to say if I had it on mine I would have passed it on to the project long ago.)

You know, Warzone is perfectly friendly to complex mods. We haven't changed the mod format since 2.1-branch. If you want to retain support, the easiest way is simply to bundle the entirety of what you want to change. i.e. change weapons.txt? Bundle everything that uses it as a dependency - the entire stats/, messages/, and skirmish folders.

To be on the safe side, if you just include the entire mp.wz+base.wz in your mod, it will remain compatible!

I had done all you suggested by last Sept. - freezing my WZ 2120 complex mod to v. 2.2.1 but wasn't sure how viable it was going forward using that approach with the later versions of the games release as well I questioned the idea of distributing such a comprehensive package (I also locked the whole thing to my custom maps since I had come to the conclusion that trying to make this complex mod's radical game play changes (& their fun, balanced, quality) universal to every WZ map out there an impossible goal and perhaps really not all that essential first time out of the gate).

Thank's Zarel for providing these reassuring details on how to proceed as I am certain your under-the-hood, nut's and bolts, code understanding and grasp runs deeper than mine with all the work you've done and do. Along with Per's input I'm encouraged to continue working and not feeling the effort will end-up being a gigantic boondoggle because I'll have to redo a bunch of basic work (not much fun, to be honest, duping work over and over) to maintain future compatibility.

Regards, VG
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[dragonflythecat]

Crux, don't worry about Zarel.

I'm still here giving him enough rope to hang himself, if he should ever single you or any one for their postings just remember this:

Zarel how old are you?

Because in your posts you write and sound like a child - which could go a long way in explaining the evolution of this game, and numerous beta releases - the fact that with each new beta release new bugs are uncovered, the players, Zarel, want the beta releases to stop - if you weren't a child that would have been apparent to you. Do not create anything new for this game until you have fixed the legacy problems associated with this game - as players, it is what we have been waiting for you to do for the last 5 beta releases.

Zarel are you even 21 yet?

Get a clue...

That Crux is how you do it. If they attack you, destroy them! And they will think twice before doing it again. Don't whine about it.

Dragonfly The Cat

[Dalton]

Dragonflythecat, if you want to make the game better instead of complaining help them with what they need help with, and they know there are problems with them game but just let them work on it instead of dealing with useless post like yours, give them suggestions not useless comments. That's all I have to say please don't reply to this post thank you.

[Zarel]

Zarel how old are you?

Zarel are you even 21 yet?

Get a clue...

Interestingly, personal attacks went out of style when I was around ten years old...

Because in your posts you write and sound like a child - which could go a long way in explaining the evolution of this game, and numerous beta releases - the fact that with each new beta release new bugs are uncovered, the players, Zarel, want the beta releases to stop - if you weren't a child that would have been apparent to you. Do not create anything new for this game until you have fixed the legacy problems associated with this game - as players, it is what we have been waiting for you to do for the last 5 beta releases.

You know, I am getting rather tired of being accused of things I didn't do. You know as well as I do:

I'm not the person who introduced the bugs you're talking about. I'm not the person who made the decision to make the releases you're talking about. I'm not the person who made anything new since 2.3 beta 2 or so, unless fixing major bugs counts as something "new".

And do you know what else? This isn't the first time I've told you. In fact, each time I've replied to one of your threads, you've ignored my replies, and the replies of everyone else. Those are the acts of a forum troll. And it just so happens that we have a forum rank made just for forum trolls. It even comes with its own banner:

Please cease your inflammatory behavior, or you may eventually be promoted to such a rank.

I really don't want to resort to such drastic action - you've made a few reasonably useful posts, and if you kept to only those, you could eventually become a well-accepted member of the community.

That Crux is how you do it. If they attack you, destroy them! And they will think twice before doing it again. Don't whine about it.

Dragonfly The Cat

I have done nothing to attack anyone. And "destroying" people, incidentally, is against forum rules.

[crux]

Zarel how old are you?

Zarel are you even 21 yet?

Get a clue...

Interestingly, personal attacks went out of style when I was around ten years old...

oh, I guess naming this thread the way you did it wasn't personal?

Because in your posts you write and sound like a child -...

You know, I am getting rather tired of being accused of things I didn't do. You know as well as I do:

I'm not the person who introduced the bugs you're talking about. I'm not the person who made the decision to make the releases you're talking about. I'm not the person who made anything new since 2.3 beta 2 or so, unless fixing major bugs counts as something "new".

me! me! me!
pass the buck, just like a... child.

Please cease your inflammatory behavior, or you may eventually be promoted to such a rank.

threaten to ban people for expressing opinions?
editing posts made by other people to cover up what you wrote?
"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"

[Kamaze]

Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it

I guess that's my keyword?

My suggestion is, that some of you guys should do a clean review about our project. I'll just quote our FAQ:

I think you do it wrongly

We don't mind criticism, as long as it is constructive. There are some hot topics which easily lead to flame wars. We appreciate it if you would try to avoid creating flame wars.

Please also keep in mind that we do this all in our spare time and are mostly not professionals or paid for this. You should realize that time is the scarcest of all resources any open source project depends upon. Thus, because we do this both voluntarily and in our preciously scarce spare time, you should not expect us to change our priorities because you tell us to. You will have to convince us to do so. Thus your suggestion's chance of being used is determined by your ability to "wet our appetite".

That said, most suggestions are very welcome. Provided, of course, that you have actually thought it through! It is usually better to ask "Have you thought of doing X this or that way?" than to say "You should do X that way.". See for example the FAQ entry below, which is a very common "suggestion", which is rarely thought through and highly unrealistic. Thus simple suggestions that require relatively small changes to implement have a much higher chance at being taken seriously.

Also keep in mind that a lot of suggestions are given over, and over again. We hope you understand that this can become very annoying, very fast. Thus please try to find out whether a suggestion has been given before.

Additionally, due to the scarcity of our time, please do your homework and work out your suggestion to a reasonable amount of detail. Otherwise your suggestion might be very difficult to discuss due to it being too vague.

If a developer spends a lot if time and effort into a project without any payment, just for fun and for making some other people happy who aren't able to implement ideas on their own, you shouldn't be surprised that he gets pissed off if you try to snub him.

Then, all you can achieve is, that he may loose his interest and may quits our team, which is -1 developer for Warzone. Critism is very welcome as long as it's constructive, so please stay gentle and don't forget that we do all this for free. And from my point of view, all of us (except me right now... *duck&cover*) are very responsive, join discussions and try to argue. It could be much worse, I guess.

If you're unsatisfied with the work we do, you're free to tell us you point of view. If it doesn't bring the desired result, well, the source is there. Poisoning our atmosphere is the wrong way.

Well, this is no prejudice, you're free to keep working with us if you wan't, nobody is vindictive. If not, well, you can make your own decisions. Warzone lives from it's community, which pushes the developers and the other way around.

[Zarel]

oh, I guess naming this thread the way you did it wasn't personal?

Not really. "Some criticism from crux" is an accurate description of what it was. Okay, so the original "Some complaining from crux" was a bit excessive, but that's why I changed it, and it is still an accurate description of what it was.

me! me! me!
pass the buck, just like a... child.

Dragonfly: "You did these bad things."
me: "No, I didn't."
crux: "You're passing the buck!"

...um, sure. Perhaps, if I had a superior who was paying me, I wouldn't mind taking some responsibility for their actions. As it stands, that's not the case, I see no reason why I should. If you have an issue with the way things are done, take it up with the people who did it, not with me.

Even if I did take responsibility, then what? I wasn't the one who did it in the first place, so I can't exactly stop it.

It would behoove you to be nicer.

threaten to ban people for expressing opinions?
editing posts made by other people to cover up what you wrote?
"Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who possess it"

"Zarel how old are you? Zarel are you even 21 yet? Get a clue..."

That's not expressing an opinion, that's trolling - posting an inflammatory remark in hopes to draw an emotional response. The only reason he wasn't banned instantly is because it was directed at me.

I've edited my posts, yes, but hardly to "cover up" what I wrote. There are other legitimate reasons to edit posts, you know. I edited the quote to match, so readers wouldn't be confused, but you'll notice I never denied editing it.

We haven't had people who went around attacking people in bad faith. There have always been arguments, but they've always been caused by personal disagreements, not outright trolling. Please, if you can behave, do so. Otherwise, I would prefer if these forums to remain a friendly place for the community, and if bans need to be handed out for that to happen, I guess I'd have no choice.

[lav_coyote25]

and with that - i will now enter the "octagon" as it were. please - no personal attacks. if you have a problem with the way the source code is being handled... you obviously know how to code... if that is in fact true - instead of commenting that this and that is the wrong way to do it - join in and start coding. if your just doing this to score points or make a name for yourself as a complainer... dont. we have better uses for time than that. if you have seen a problem - bring it to the attention of the coders and when they have the time - i am sure they will get to it. eventually. remember this is staffed by UNPAID persons who do the WORK ON THEIR OWN TIME and at times even if it means giving up family time in real life. again if you can help out. do it. dont bring problems to the meeting table - bring the solutions. ok? kthnksbai.