Dragon / Wyvern bodies

[themousemaster]

I just did a quick search of the forum... I don't see this posted, so... lets make a thread about it! ;p.

Alright, we all know that the research time, cost, and build time of these 2 behemoths makes them fairly prohibitive to use in normal gameplay. Obviously, they need some boostin'.


How about if the 2 were made the super-heavy bodies they were envisioned as, but on opposite sides of the effect spectrum?

Step 1: Give both bodies the Armor values the Dragon has right now.
Step 2: Give the Dragon body an additional 50% armor on top of that.
Step 3: Give the Wyvern a 50% thermal armor bonus on top of that.


That way, there is a super-heavy anti-kinetic body that can still be torched, and a super-heavy anti-heat body that can still be shot up.

[KukY]

I believe that there is a mod that has additional 2 bodies.
One with extreme thermal armor,but is extreme sensitive on kinetic damage,
and other with extreme kinetic armor,but is extreme thermal sensitive.

[Deus Siddis]

This doesn't help the problem and doesn't really fit with the resistance balances of the other body types.

[Per]

More specialized kinds of bodies would be nice. The current selection of bodies is quite bland.

[ClockWork]

Hmm… especially since the Scorpion obsoletes the Leopard, (in everything, even in price,)and the Mantis obsoletes the Panther.

The only reason why the Tiger isn’t obsoleted, is because the New Paradigm has no Super heavy body. At least the NEXUS bodies are countered because they are more expensive, and are higher on the tech tree.

But this is about heavy bodies, isn’t it? Well, consider this:

[BODY]
[BODY POINTS][KINETIC/THERMAL] X [Superdense Composite Alloys Mk3 research bonus]

Vengeance:
300 BP 28/25 X %370 = 1,110 103.6/92.5
Dragon:
400 BP 30/30 X %370 = 1,480 111/111
The difference in BP is 370
Now then, this does not seem much of a difference, right? Well, lets give them some hover propulsion.

Vengence:
1,110 X %250= 2,775

Dragon:
1,480 X %250= 3,700The difference in BP is 925

Now then, with this bigger increase, it seems a bit more formidable. Not to mention, every single one of those hit points that the Dragon has over the Vengeance, has increased armor as well. Although, 8 or so armor differences aren’t going to help much against anti tank weapons, that small amount really shines against artillery, anti personnel, and anything that fires in salvoes or with fast reloading.

[Avestron]

I am of the opinion that thye Wyvern and Dragon stand out somewhat (they both occupy the superheavy class).

I would personally like to see superheavy members of the Project, New Paradigm, Collective and Nexus bodies with the body branches modified to fill the following niches:

- - - - - - - - - - - - Body Points - - Weight - - Engine Power - - Anti-Kinetic - - Anti-Flame - - Super Heavy Specialization
Project: - - - - - - Med-High - - - Med-High - Average - - - - - Average - - - - Average - - - - (Anti-Kinetic + Anti-Flame)

New Paradigm: - Average - - - - Low - - - - - Med-High - - - - Average - - - Med-High - - - - (Engine + Anti-Flame)

Collective: - - - - Med-High - - - High - - - - Average - - - - - - Med-High - - Average - - - - - (Body Points + Anti-Kinetic)

Nexus: - - - - - - Med-High - - - - Average - - Med-High - - - - Med-High - - - Med-High - - - (Engine + Anti-Kinetic + Anti-Flame)

I would also suggest bodies that scale up in engine power in a non-linear fashion - providing lighter and medium bodies with a niche of their own.

I did not include the draconic body classes but I am sure that there is room for a whole draconic tree.

- - -

I also suggest a reworking of the tech tree such that Project, New Paradigm, Collective, Nexus and other body types become available independently of each other but dependent upon different lines of research:

Project - Base Structure Reinforcement

New Paradigm - Advanced Synaptic Research + Cyborg Factory

Collective - Robotic Repair Bay Research

Nexus - Improved Sensor Research

Just ideas here.

[DFStormbringer]

- - -

I also suggest a reworking of the tech tree such that Project, New Paradigm, Collective, Nexus and other body types become available independently of each other but dependent upon different lines of research:

Project - Base Structure Reinforcement

New Paradigm - Advanced Synaptic Research + Cyborg Factory

Collective - Robotic Repair Bay Research

Nexus - Improved Sensor Research

Just ideas here.

Project - Base Structure Reinforcement
which comes off the truck upgrades which come DIRECTLY from the research facility upgrades.

New Paradigm - Advanced Synaptic Research + Cyborg Factory

Collective - Robotic Repair Bay Research

Nexus - Improved Sensor Research
again.. comes DIRECTLY off the research facility upgrades..

so basically your STILL having 3 of the 4 body types tied directly off the the research facility upgrades where as now its reliant on the engine and armor upgrades for vehicles.

and if you catagorize the bodies that much by faction people are going to demand that weapons be done the same way.. and that idea has been shot down over and over again for years.
which upsets me because then it would REALLY add an impressive element to the game... PROPER use of the nexus turret and artifact aquisition.

each faction having access to certain weapons only.. being forced to rely on stealth and cunning to "steal" the other technology from the enemy.

but such a radical change would case a whole new direction for balancing.. and would require a total rewrite of the code because to pull it off .. right now its just not possible.

[Avestron]

Actually its not impossibility - granted my earlier example was more about distributing bodies more appropriately than generating seperate trees.

- - -

I think that one of the biggest blocks to generating actual seperate factions is the simple fact that the bodies are not equal. The most striking superiority would be the Nexus bodies - they are virtually uncomparable. Bug vs retaliation is a win for nexus every time - all other things being equal.

- - -

This is a big of a long shot but would it not be interesting if all factions start out from another body - with clear inspiration from post WWII technology ("box-ish" body set) which is 'Average' in every way (as per the areas mentioned in my previous post) and relatively heavy in body weight.

With the introduction of this generic body it becomes possible to create multiple faction tech trees where each faction progresses to a specific set of body types related to a faction and where seperate factions have specializations in different areas of the tech trees.

For instance - Nexus could be the only faction to fully utilize Nexus turret technology - their bodies are both fast and well-shielded but have their work cut out for them in certain types of battles (hit and run versus New Paradigm or kinetic slug fest against collective).

I could see New Paradigm specializing in flamer and laser technology as well as cybernetics.

I could see Collective specializing in high-end cannon tech, advanced production and repair automation

I could see Project specializing in toughest-end hardcrete, base fortitude, Machinegun and Rocket tech

This doesn't 'need' to result in short-changing factions with existing tech (though it can, such as depriving the Nexus turret from the other three factions (and I'll squeeze in the Scavengers here for those who love them ^_~).

- - -

I can make a Westwood comparison here to give an idea of how different ways of handling factions can be more or less effective.

In Red Alert the factions were England, France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine. In all frankness there was very little to set them apart other than the obvious difference that Russian structures and units were some 10% or so cheaper than their Ukraine counterparts (I'm sure Ukraine units and structures had their pros of course but the cost change was most obvious). The factions were hard to tell apart.

In Red Alert II there were less subtle changes - the core was the same but there were specialities - Germany had an improved tank. Iraq had a special unit. Great Britain had snipers. America spawned free ground units occasionally. Etc.

I personally think that the combined effect of provision of upgrades and features would go a long way towards defining factions far beyond what they are at the moment. Through the generation of parallel faction tech trees specifically for multiplayer or skirmish there should no longer be an issue.

The question is what each tech tree would look like ;c)

[Kacen]

I do think the armor values in general of the Dragon/Wyvern bodies should be increased.

They already have higher HP than the Vengeance, but honestly, not by the amount they should. Kinetic armor for each should be increased, not just thermal armor. Overall HP as well.

However giving them specific defensive niches is not fitting for the super heavy body class; if anything new bodies should be added for that purpose.