Multi-Hardpoint Thoughts

[Arcalane]

I was flicking through my old Warzone 2100 manual earlier and noticed - right towards the end, just before the credits, there's a section that gives hints about weaponry. It mentions that there are 'classes' of weapons that are restricted on a per chassis basis. Presumably these got scrapped in the end, but perhaps this system could be re-introduced as a way to;

1) Cut down on really silly units (Viper Wheels Ripple Rocket Launcher, anyone? ;D)
2) Increase realism (if that would be desirable in such a scenario) by simulating structural/power limitations (You can't mount that Heavy Cannon on a Viper, it hasn't got enough power output and it's too much strain on the chassis from the recoil)
3) Limit the weapons mountable on multi-hardpoint chassis by setting the class mountable on a per-hardpoint basis.

Example;

Viper:
Hardpoints - 1
HP#1 Weapon Class - 1

Cobra:
Hardpoints - 1
HP#1 Weapon Class - 1, 2

Python:
Hardpoints - 2
HP#1 (Top/Main) Weapon Class - 2, 3, 4
HP#2 (Front/Aux) Weapon Class - 1

Weapons can then be organized into classes based on their size, power, and so on.

For example, all machineguns are Class 1 weapons - from the humble single MG up to the single Assault Gun. (Dual Assault Gun is kinda chunky, should probably be a 2 or 3)

Cannons vary - HPVs and Lights are Class 1 - Medium is 2 - Heavy is 3. Single assault is 2/3, dual assault is 3/4.

Most artillery weapons are 2-4. Exception; mini-rocket arty and small mortars - class 1.

Laser weapons start at 2 for the most part (but then who uses Flashlights anyway?) and work their way up logically - Pulse; 2, Heavy; 3, Plasma; 4.

--

Then, when you're designing a unit, if WZ could be made to only show the classes that can be fit onto the selected hardpoint, it would reduce clutter and the need to scroll through tons of weapons.

Limiting both the maximum and the minimum classes available will force people to mix and match their army sizes and compositions so that you don't get armies made up of hundreds of cookie-cutter units, even with multi-hardpoints available.

I know it won't happen tomorrow, or the day after that, or maybe not for weeks - but it's still worth considering, isn't it?

--

Starting from here I'm sorting chassis and weapons into categories, starting with chassis;

PROJECT
Viper
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 1

Cobra
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 2

Python
Hardpoints: 2
HP#1 (Main/Top) Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 (Aux/Front) Weapon Class Max: 1

NEW PARADIGM
Bug
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 1

Scorpion
Hardpoints: 1
HP#2 Weapon Class Max: 2

Mantis
Hardpoints: 2
HP#2 (Main/Top) Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 (Aux/Front) Weapon Class Max: 1

COLLECTIVE
Leopard
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 1

Panther
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 2

Tiger
Hardpoints: 2
HP#1 (Main/Top) Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 (Front/Aux) Weapon Class Max:

NEXUS
Retaliation
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 1

Retribution
Hardpoints: 1
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 2

Vengeance
Hardpoints: 2
HP#1 (Top/Main) Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 (Front/Aux) Weapon Class Max: 1

SUPER-HEAVY
Wyvern
Hardpoints: 2
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 Weapon Class Max: 1

Dragon
Hardpoints: 2
HP#1 Weapon Class Max: 3
HP#2 Weapon Class Max: 2

--

Starting from here are the weapons;

CLASS 1
Machinegun
Twin Machinegun
Heavy Machinegun
Asssault Gun

Light Cannon
Hypervelocity Cannon

Needle Gun

Minirocket Pod
Minirocket Artillery

Mortar
Incendiary Mortar

Flashlight Laser

CLASS 2
Dual Assault Gun

Medium Cannon
Assault Cannon

Rail Gun

Incendiary Howitzer

Pulse Laser

Angel Rocket Launcher

All Antiaircraft Weapons (Hurricane, Cyclone, Stormbringer, etc.)

CLASS 3
Heavy Cannon
Dual Assault Cannon

Gauss Cannon

Heavy Laser
Plasma Cannon

Howitzer
Groundshaker Howitzer
Hellstorm Howitzer

Ripple Rocket Launcher
Archangel Rocket Launcher

[Buginator]

...
I know it won't happen tomorrow, or the day after that, or maybe not for weeks - but it's still worth considering, isn't it?

Sure, but all the models need to be redone to support this *correctly*, then someone has to make a 'which part is allowed with which part' list.  Then fix the bugs with the current multi-turret code.

Minds you, it is *very* hard to get help from the community at large( :'( -- most people here are game players, and that is about it), so it might take a very long time, unless someone starts fixing the models when they read this, since they also want to have proper multi-turret working correctly. 

[Per]

I did not know about the weapon class plan, but in the code, there is an unused 'system points' parameter that is stored in the stats files, and which presumably was meant to indicate how much "add-ons", like weapons, the body could have. I never tried to reverse calculate how it could worked, but the idea seems sound.

[Arcalane]

I did not know about the weapon class plan, but in the code, there is an unused 'system points' parameter that is stored in the stats files, and which presumably was meant to indicate how much "add-ons", like weapons, the body could have. I never tried to reverse calculate how it could worked, but the idea seems sound.

If you have/can find a copy of the original Warzone 2100 manual, it's right in the back just before the credits section. I'll see if I can't get a shot of it later with a digital camera or something. It's amusingly erroneous and thinks that the Hover propulsion type is a Body type... I guess seeing as the hardpoint restriction concept was never implemented the manual was never corrected.

The section also goes over the use of certain weapons against certain targets, such as machineguns being better against infantry, cyborgs, wheeled units and 'soft' targets (base structures) but less effective against VTOLs and tracked units.

A simple hardpoint restriction seems easier and possibly more balanced (if something is in the wrong place it can just be shuffled into another category, but I suppose nothing is ever perfect) than messing around with trying to add another 'restriction' system based on chassis power generation.

[gnou]

Arcalane,
can you do tables with :
- Weapon |Class
- Body-HP|Class
?

We can use the all weapon's weight to fix mounted-limitation too.

[Arcalane]

I had been thinking of going through and setting some up and listing bodies and sorting the weapons into the categories (I had meant to but never got around to it), but I know nothing about code so all I can do is get an actual list of suggestions.

Ed: That's all the stock chassis done. My first question, before moving on to weapon categorization, is;

"Should higher-end chassis have a higher weapon class max on their auxiliary hardpoint?" (see Dragon for example)

Ed2: That's the preliminaries laid down for weapon classes as well. I'm bouncing around ideas for a theoretical Class 4 that contains all the AA weapons that is only open to Medium chassis for the purposes of mobile AA.

[psychopompos]

i like a lot  ;D
though, just to be annoying ... 
"(You can't mount that Heavy Cannon on a Viper, it hasn't got enough power output and it's too much strain on the chassis from the recoil)"
you can and did get 120mm self powered AT guns, even enclosed versions.
when you look at the specs, the heavy cannon, is just a 120 mm gun.

to go further, those rail gun hovers are blazingly absurd, the recoil effect would be far to great for them to be pilotable & L3 bodies would be too heavy to move unless stripped to tinfoil.  ::)

beyond that again, given the apparent sizes of the tank bodies, the L3 bodies are Maus2 class in size, hell the python even looks like a maus2
making the L2 bodies equiv to current m1a2/challenger/leopard/merkava.

meaning that there are only the heaviest of weapons need limited to L3 bodies

[gnou]

The "weapon limit system" should only, in my mind, avoid Twin-heavy weapons.

WZ freedom in units design is the core of this game.
The game has already a "limit system" with the weight/output balance,
maybe reinforce him for heavy weapon would be better that "strict-limitation".
Or simply do 2 categories, Twinable or not ?

------------------
+ a VTOL categorie...  ::)

[Arcalane]

to go further, those rail gun hovers are blazingly absurd, the recoil effect would be far to great for them to be pilotable & L3 bodies would be too heavy to move unless stripped to tinfoil.  ::)

Depends on the method, really; they don't look much like proper "rail" guns to me, more like coil guns/magnetic accelerators. But that's semantics.

A VTOL category is kinda redundant, since VTOL weapons can only be used on VTOL chassis in the first place. It might be something to consider if we want to stop heavy VTOLs having twin scourges and such, though.

This is just a suggestion after all, but a class system might be more effective at restricting stuff. That, and it'd be a nice option for mods, no?

[psychopompos]

Depends on the method, really; they don't look much like proper "rail" guns to me, more like coil guns/magnetic accelerators. But that's semantics.

even coil guns have recoil, its all Newtonian physics.

you could use the [url=http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7CyPtF0ChA"]Gaussian effect[/url].
but at weapon grade levels, the kenetic energys effect within the turret would be massively explosive, meaning there would be no way to reduce weapon weight for simple reason of structural integrity.

edit= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7CyPtF0ChA
the forum feels the need to add an extra "http//" even in a proper url tag¬_¬