Multitasking, pop-pushing, scavs, ricochet, headshot...

[NRA]

Hi guys, (now normally) playing skirmish I came to a few ideas, so, how do you feel about

1) multitasking; say, a truck is building a sensor near a hardpoint, an enemy chaser comes near and starts gradually wear the hardpoint out; instead of a failure and getting killed, the truck interrupts construction and periodically repairs the hardpoint, so the enemy aggressor cannot clear the site up.

2) pop-pushing; I wish there was a difference for a command queue: not only do it later (add the last entry in orders line), but do it before (add it as the first entry).

3) scavs are rather pitiful; I wish they had temporary some 'biffer baker' option))
Ok, not that much, just let all the scavs units and structures being destroyed (or badly damaged) invoke one-five scav soldiers; perhaps it's ok for other parties too.

4) as far as most units have EXP (as human drivers?), I think that there should be a chance of 'headshot'--not as instant killing, but as interim EMP-effect.

5) random ricocheting is great--it would be great to see a random deflected rocket or friendly fire by chance)

As far as there's no predefined formations, I would like that all units have some Time-To-Live orders, so when gathering at the rally point they stop 'dancing' in pairs or three around the fourth and so on.

Any ideas?

[The Overlord]

1) multitasking; say, a truck is building a sensor near a hardpoint, an enemy chaser comes near and starts gradually wear the hardpoint out; instead of a failure and getting killed, the truck interrupts construction and periodically repairs the hardpoint, so the enemy aggressor cannot clear the site up.

As a truck builds a building, it adds health to the building as quickly or more quickly then repairing it regularly and then, after the building is completed, the truck should repair the building (if it has no more orders).

[NRA]

Overlord, it was just an example (hardly the most demonstrative) which I often use to kill the enemy unit or even a few without fire support.

Ok, the point is that very often BEFORE the truck completes construction the defensive structure is already demolished, so the enemy has just to finish the rest whereas this scenario is not quite possible when the defense keeps wearing the enemy down too remaining operational.

So I think that trying to keep key/attacked structures alive (e.g. over 40%) even while building other structures could greatly increase AI chance to survive. It works for me, no guarantees though)

[Lord Apocalypse]

And on the flip side, the attacker should be smart enough to go after the truck rather than the unfinished structure.

2. Good idea, though how to work the key commands (and how much coding is involved i'm fuzzy on).

3. Scavs are supposed to be weaker.. though granted they could be made to produce larger numbers faster.

4. This wold be better served by a crit table. The idea has been around since 99 too. My thoughts though some shots (even at full health) should be able to crit on a hit to either... Knock out propulsion, insta death (hits ammo compartment BOOM!), weapon destroyed, crew killed (or vehicles AI destroyed w/e), weapon/propulsion damaged (lowers speed)...

The topic has a far range of possibilities beyond what I mentioned above. Though granted it should also be limited to weapon type of the attacker and the armor type of the receiving vehicle. Perhaps even the weapon type of the defender as well.

As for the dancing... Its not a bug its a feature!. They added dancing units for your further entertainment

[NRA]

Thank you for your input too, Lord Apocalypse.

Sure, a clever opponent would rather check the 'whole' situation, but AI encounters the first (the nearest) 'enemy' and is to attack it whereas moving a little closer or checking another nearest enemy would give a great benefit--no truck, no new structure, no repairing for damaged ones (and possible other inconveniences). A priority list?

The original queue idea is ok, but occasionally I find it more convenient to 'modify' the order. For example, There's a queue for mid-long ranged defense and sensors when suddenly enemy vtols come and it's high time for AA, or, say, an enemy starts arta whereas CB was just researched while all the truck have certain plans. Now one has to interrupt the queue or sacrifice a truck which is not always the best option.

This way scavs will remain weaker (gosh! I still wish AI could use 'biffer baker'!), but soldiers out of destroyed units/building would make it funnier, I think. Because even almost demolished structure is not completely unprotected, so one should reconsider attacking it by a damaged or a weak unit.

Indeed, a temporary blackout would give just a bit chance to wear off very hard die units while I doubt about critical hits which may drastically change the gameplay; perhaps, instead of dying the affected unit should ignite, low speed/stats or stop autorepairing? Even when there's one to billion, I would be really disappointed when a wild lowcost unit bullet instantly kills a heavy tank or a superborg. On the other hand it could be an extended version of 'stone-paper-scissors.'

Actually such 'dancing' units are rather buddy-buddy for they distract and play into the hands of enemy. Latent saboteurs? However, it's fancy that as commander you cannot promote units at will--at some costs or 'glory points' although it's different from exp.

Ok, now I'm thinking about about permanent debris (rather CPU intensive), terramorphing (always wanted to make cliffs as slopes, but also may be CPU-hungry), unit upgrades via repair truck/tower (instead of recycled rebuilding), direct structure replacing (instead demolish-build), limited ammunition for non-energy weapons (dearest truck as suppliers?) and orders (e.g. set a sensor tank to scout nearby).

Of course, the game is quite flexible and gives many possibilities, so the main task is to filter the best viable ideas and implement the most playable of them

[Lord Apocalypse]

Sure, a clever opponent would rather check the 'whole' situation, but AI encounters the first (the nearest) 'enemy' and is to attack it whereas moving a little closer or checking another nearest enemy would give a great benefit--no truck, no new structure, no repairing for damaged ones (and possible other inconveniences). A priority list?

An unfinished building should shout out "truck" but I don't think it counts (to the AI) as a build in progress. The AI probably sees a building just like any other so it stops to attack it. Its just plain stupid that the AI is limited to seeing distance A while its weapon range is distance B. Those must be some really really near-sighted drivers/AI. Anyway, the AI should be able to tell the difference between complete and being built. Would make the AI a little tougher at least. Which leads me to other things.. but beyond the scope of this thread.

The original queue idea is ok, but occasionally I find it more convenient to 'modify' the order. For example, There's a queue for mid-long ranged defense and sensors when suddenly enemy vtols come and it's high time for AA, or, say, an enemy starts arta whereas CB was just researched while all the truck have certain plans. Now one has to interrupt the queue or sacrifice a truck which is not always the best option.

Like I said though.. would require a new key combo and a code change. Maybe ctrl + shift on the build list to add to the front instead of last. Anything beyond that and you start to micromanage too much. Might be as a UI popup but useless when your truck is getting shot at.

This way scavs will remain weaker (gosh! I still wish AI could use 'biffer baker'!), but soldiers out of destroyed units/building would make it funnier, I think. Because even almost demolished structure is not completely unprotected, so one should reconsider attacking it by a damaged or a weak unit.

The answer is still more or less the same. More scavs, not uber killer scavs. Now having scavs scatter out of a destroyed building like cockroaches would be a good idea.

Indeed, a temporary blackout would give just a bit chance to wear off very hard die units while I doubt about critical hits which may drastically change the gameplay; perhaps, instead of dying the affected unit should ignite, low speed/stats or stop autorepairing? Even when there's one to billion, I would be really disappointed when a wild lowcost unit bullet instantly kills a heavy tank or a superborg. On the other hand it could be an extended version of 'stone-paper-scissors.'

Like I said, certain weapons would not apply all results. Only armor piercing explosive rounds would insta-kill a unit (except VTOLS). I can't remember if a bullet can set off missiles/cannon rounds or not. Might need a little research, but I am pretty sure that if the units ammo storage gets hit then the resulting explosion would destroy the unit. So, probability may not be high but it is a result of a critical hit. Back in my AD&D days one of my buddies had a crit miss and ending up cutting off his own foot. Lets not dwell on crits too long or I may start going on and on about possible crit misses as well

Ok, now I'm thinking about about permanent debris (rather CPU intensive), terramorphing (always wanted to make cliffs as slopes, but also may be CPU-hungry)

I think permanent debris would add more to RAM and GPU than CPU. Deforming terrain.. possibly all 3 short term anyway

unit upgrades via repair truck/tower (instead of recycled rebuilding)

With the variety of possible unit combinations.. no, not worth it to code this as a feature (though you can try yourself if ya like).

direct structure replacing (instead demolish-build)

Same as above

limited ammunition for non-energy weapons (dearest truck as suppliers?)

I don't remember if this has been done before, even back in the days of NEWST or pumpkin2. I know it was possible to do on the data side though you would probably have to use something like the rearming pad rather than the truck. If memory serves the discussion was to use the repair towers, but that was a long long time ago.

orders (e.g. set a sensor tank to scout nearby).

AFAIK requires a code change but I have though about this idea for awhile and plan on putting it into Redemption. Then again I plan on giving the whole AI system an overhaul. Not only for adding orders but to make the AI a lot smarter on some things. If you ever played Neverwinter Nights and played with the scriting system there, that is about how I want to work WZ scripts. Scouts avoid combat, trucks run if attacked or perhaps call for help if they can survive long enough. The possibilities even with this projects scripting system is nearly limitless. Best to ask Goth and NoQ ust how far they have pushed the scripting system.

[NRA]

Lord Apocalypse, you're talking.
Could you refer me to the info how limited ammunition effected the gameplay?

Although I don't think that *stationary* pads are any better that *mobile* trucks* or repair trucks.

[Lord Apocalypse]

As I said I don't know that limited ammo was really done. I know it CAN be done though. Mostly it setting all unit weapons to require ammo in the data files then add the required directive to a building (though never discussed mobile ammo trucks I think).

My thoughts on all of this for Redemption was simple, but required the changes in data and code.

The basics are as follows
Ammo Dumps - works as the VTOL rearming pad does
Ammo Trucks - works as above but slower more like the mobile repair truck
Limited/Unlimited Ammo selectable from within game options so people wont whine one way or the other.
Some weapons such as machineguns have no limited or a very high limit. Structures also have no ammo limit, though this will need some heavy balance research. Either way it changes the dynamic on various strategies that are currently used in mp games. Flamers would probably also qualify for high limits or no limits (vehicle).

It would be interesting to add fuel limits but the current map sizes are really too small and having ammo limits already makes some people grumpy. Though frankly in the Total War games there are already ammo limits for siege weapons and other ranged units. Makes play more enjoyable and changes a lot of strategy dynamics. Kinda hard to rush your enemies in the first 5 minutes of a game if they want to turtle. They would probably need more units or a forward supply base nearby

As far as mobile and repair stations. The repair rates differ between the two. Repair units don't repair a unit as fast as the building . Not sure how the building compares to the heavy repair turret though. That will have to be answered by someone else.

[The Overlord]

Why limited ammo won't be implemented:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=3645&p=35487&hilit ... mmo#p35487

[Lord Apocalypse]

To this project maybe. The argument in that thread though is rather lame. Too much micro? You want too much micro play a 4X game.