Updating Old Apps? WZCK, Pie Slicer, et al.

[cybersphinx]

GIT is distributed (something which I have a hard time wrapping my brain around).

Doing so is totally worth it though in my opinion.

With svn a commit lands in the public repository immediately. With git, you can choose which changes you want to commit, fix them, reorder them, drop them again, put them in a local branch to work on them more, and only push them to a public repo once they're in a good state.

[dak180]

The biggest advantage of git (and DVCS in general) is that it is really easy for other people to contribute to a project and the more people that contribute the better it is especially when many contribute causally.

The biggest advantage of svn (or any central repository) is usually that they handle large (10 MB+ in one or more files) non-text files better than most DVCS do mostly because such files tend to waste space if they change with any sort of frequency.

That said github does have a svn interface to their git repos if that is how you would prefer to start; a quick search should get you all the info you need to set that up.

[Stratadrake]

Well, github would be nice since WZ2100 itself is archived there, but what should I call the repo?

The other day I was cleaning up Pie Slicer's old directory structure so I can get ready to package it, when I noticed the readme file. Pie Slicer was designed on a machine that was barely powerful enough to run the original Warzone itself . . . wow that brings back memories.

I downloaded Visual Studio (VB Express 2010, anyway) last night and completed its version of a Hello World program (a basic image loader). Interesting. However I might have to be designing Pie Slicer's interface and code mostly from the ground up again, since VB2010 doesn't seem to have an option for importing old VB6 project files.

But that may have to wait a few hours, since I also told myself I have a date with a fox to be attending to.

[cybersphinx]

Well, github would be nice since WZ2100 itself is archived there, but what should I call the repo?

One repo per project (edit: "project" = "program", in this case), named after the project.

[Lord Apocalypse]

?? wz project has multiple repos. One for the game, one for wmit, and a couple others for other things.. website I think also.

[Stratadrake]

Now I remember why I made Pie Slicer do all of its form sizing/layout by hand -- because I couldn't trust VB6's internal layout engine to do it for me. It kept messing up the placement of everything that goes on the window borders...

Visual Studio's layout options are far more complex, which easily proves one thing: It's that much easier to screw it up.

That's a memory I DON'T want back, thank you very much....

[Lord Apocalypse]

I have my retail repo up on github. I will be setting up a svn repo on sourceforge.net Once I get Redemption back up on sf.net I can setup a branch for your tools strata. Do you have a sourceforge account?

Once up in svn I'm pretty sure I can setup a git repo and have svn commits pushed to git (I believe it can be done, just have to learn how...)

[Rman Virgil]

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My, my. I didn't even know about #4. If you're interested, there's been a lot of discussion about the UI and some possible reworking of it here, here, and here. Some really good stuff there and it fits with IMGen talk.

I think that all that would really be needed changes-wise to WZCK is:

1) stripping out the .wdg stuff (since our .wz files are simply re-named zip files), or (better yet) simply having the mod saved as its' folder structure in a new folder. That would eliminate the need for .wew files too (and I remember the problems you had with that).

2) slightly modding the text output format to be unix-like instead of Windows-like.

3) Dependancies. I have a HARD time getting old Win9x .ocx's to cooperate on WIndows 7, hehe.

Little stuff, really, but it adds up.

For PieSlicer, that will take some more work. We're using a new .pie format that really is leaps and bounds above the old days.

I couldn't get GitHub to cooperate with me at all. Someone else more knowledgeable with it than I am would be more suited in that regard.

Any new thoughts Goth, on the feasibility of resurrecting WZCK to work with the current data set and portability...?

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[Goth Zagog-Thou]

Yep, been thinking about that a lot actually. The WZCK datasets, so far, are renamed .txt files and are straightforward to work with. There are differences with the 3.1+ data that makes WZCK mods incompatible, but a new '3.1-standard.dtb' will fix that issue.

Aside from that, the only things really needed to be changed are:

- Stripping out the .wdg functions and simply exporting files as they should appear structure-wise (since one can easily zip them up, then rename to .wz) without need for further action from WZCK

- Have the program use local-directory locations for the needed .dll and .ocx files, since 64-bit windows does not like those Win-98-era ones at ALL and refuses to register them. WINE, however, seems perfectly fine with them (as expected).

That's really all that would be needed. I can make the new .dtb for 3.1+ Warzone myself. The output changes may take some work, but nothing that isn't doable.

[Rman Virgil]

Yep, been thinking about that a lot actually. The WZCK datasets, so far, are renamed .txt files and are straightforward to work with. There are differences with the 3.1+ data that makes WZCK mods incompatible, but a new '3.1-standard.dtb' will fix that issue.

Aside from that, the only things really needed to be changed are:

- Stripping out the .wdg functions and simply exporting files as they should appear structure-wise (since one can easily zip them up, then rename to .wz) without need for further action from WZCK

- Have the program use local-directory locations for the needed .dll and .ocx files, since 64-bit windows does not like those Win-98-era ones at ALL and refuses to register them. WINE, however, seems perfectly fine with them (as expected).

That's really all that would be needed. I can make the new .dtb for 3.1+ Warzone myself. The output changes may take some work, but nothing that isn't doable.

Sweet.

It was predicted with Flail 13's very first release of FlaME that it would trigger a map-making renaissance.

A resurrected WZCK will do likewise for WZ modding, I believe.

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[Goth Zagog-Thou]

Something else I had been thinking about, but neglected to express:

- Have WZCK directly import base.wz and mp.wz as needed, with version-checking to make sure it uses a selected base or mp. With this comes importing from different standards, such as what contingency, USM, and cam4 offer. And, by proxy, the ability to merge those together eventually.

After that comes the fixing of long-standing bugs/unfinished features that I'm sure still exist, and eventually mod-making will become much easier.

[Lord Apocalypse]

Something every game project has on its "must have" list is developer tools. Even if its only internal, no tools = no game. Getting stratas old tools up and running should be given some decent priority so we can see more mods come out, even if 90% of them are crap it will still push new ideas into the pipe for data changes and data code side features to not only make modding better overall but the ability to streamline the process.

[Rman Virgil]

Something every game project has on its "must have" list is developer tools. Even if its only internal, no tools = no game. Getting stratas old tools up and running should be given some decent priority so we can see more mods come out, even if 90% of them are crap it will still push new ideas into the pipe for data changes and data code side features to not only make modding better overall but the ability to streamline the process.

Indeed.

Here's something I posted in Goth's CAM 4 thread earlier today that very much also applies here:

........The whole notion of "WZ-Like" & "Not WZ-Like" is a topic we covered at great length at rts.net after Alex M. told us that the source would finally be released in a few months. 2 things resulted from these extensive development discussions the sutumn of 2004.

1.) Modularize the game framework as a precursor to any sub-system improvements.

2.) Create far greater mod support so modders work would be facilitated and they would be free to go wherever their vision led them, while the vision of the original was preserved. IOWs, externalizing all potential "Not WZ-Like" creations while still fully embracing their legitimacy to exist and be supported as valued contributions to the post-liberation canon.

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[Goth Zagog-Thou]

I agree with LA's assessment also. The needed tools have to be in place for this to move forward.

With that, I'll be in a 'Holding Pattern' (as VTOL talk goes ) and see what happens for a bit.

[Rman Virgil]

........

With that, I'll be in a 'Holding Pattern' (as VTOL talk goes ) and see what happens for a bit.

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