Dedicated Airceaft Bodies

[Olrox]

Now, put the anti-aircraft guns from warzone 2100 on a python vtol and you've got your perfect actual concept of a fighter made by the current modular system.

That's not possible. The AA guns don't have a VTOL compatible version.

Oh, yeah, sorry, but it's obvious. I did notice that already, been playing for a long long time. Sorry to be rude, but that's really obvious and I've said that because the only weapóns that are currently able to shoot only aircraft in the game are the AA turrets ans SAM turrets. And we wouldn't put quad parallel-barreled Ack-Acks on aircraft, and I've meant that by saying that we don't want Vertical Take-Off and Landing Ack-Acks.

About the pic, find a tank with a similar shape and I'll quietly delete my account from this forum, so I won't bother you all again.

The function of the fightersis to function as a anti-aircraft vehicle only. Now, put the anti-aircraft guns from warzone 2100 on a python vtol and you've got your perfect actual concept of a fighter made by the current modular system.

Hey, hey, the following are all considered anti-aircraft weapons:

VTOL Machinegun
VTOL Twin Machinegun
VTOL Heavy Machinegun
VTOL Assault Gun
VTOL Lancer
VTOL Tank Killer
VTOL Scourge Missile
VTOL Needle Gun
VTOL Rail Gun

The general rule is, all machineguns, rockets, missiles, and rails are no longer anti-personnel/anti-tank, but become anti-air when put on a VTOL (most other weapons stay the same, but notably pulse laser becomes anti-tank). A VTOL heavy machinegun is basically a Cyclone, and a VTOL assault gun is basically a Whirlwind.

Ok, zarel, whenever I want to say something about anti-aircraft only weapons again, I'll post a list containing specifically Hurricane AA turret, Cyclone AA turret, Whirlwind AA turret, Avenger SAM and Vindicator SAM.

[whippersnapper]

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the beauty about creating your work as a MOD is that you can follow thru on your vision exactly as you see fit and really don't have to be concerned with controversies over 'violating the purity of the original'... you just do it and let the popularity of those who play MP speak for itself. most here just play the campaign and skirmish and when it comes to the actual MP experience know very little really and they think it's all the same - all 3 game modes, and they most definitely are not same. when peeps will only play MP with your mod then you know your onto something enduring. there are 2 main things that contribute most powerfully to a games longevity and vitality - Mods and robust MP. there are proposals here that would kick-ass in MP, imho, and so why waste energy debating the "purity of the original" and inclusion as part of the so called "original design" - just do it as a mod and bah humbug to the "chicken little's" cries that the sky is gonna fall, hehe.

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[psychopompos]

Hey, hey, the following are all considered anti-aircraft weapons:

VTOL Machinegun
VTOL Twin Machinegun
VTOL Heavy Machinegun
VTOL Assault Gun
VTOL Lancer
VTOL Tank Killer
VTOL Scourge Missile
VTOL Needle Gun
VTOL Rail Gun

The general rule is, all machineguns, rockets, missiles, and rails are no longer anti-personnel/anti-tank, but become anti-air when put on a VTOL (most other weapons stay the same, but notably pulse laser becomes anti-tank). A VTOL heavy machinegun is basically a Cyclone, and a VTOL assault gun is basically a Whirlwind.

wouldnt that be air to air?
put em on tanks & see which are anti air...

[Zarel]

The general rule is, all machineguns, rockets, missiles, and rails are no longer anti-personnel/anti-tank, but become anti-air when put on a VTOL (most other weapons stay the same, but notably pulse laser becomes anti-tank). A VTOL heavy machinegun is basically a Cyclone, and a VTOL assault gun is basically a Whirlwind.

wouldnt that be air to air?
put em on tanks & see which are anti air...

You can't put VTOL weapons on tanks. They're anti-air in the sense that the game calls their type "anti-air", i.e. their multipliers are anti-air multipliers (high damage to aircraft, tanks, and cyborgs, low damage to structures). As in, if you look at the weapon damage table at the bottom of Warzone Guide: Weapons, it's gonna use the "anti-air" column.

Or, in other words, if you looked at weapons.txt/weapons.sql, you'd see:

Code: Select all

Weapon            Type
--------------------------------
Machinegun        Anti-personnel
Lancer            Anti-tank
VTOL Machinegun   Anti-aircraft
VTOL Lancer       Anti-aircraft

Well, technically, you'd see "Rocket-LtAT" and "ANTI TANK" instead of "Lancer" and "Anti-tank", but you get the idea.

[whippersnapper]

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Olrox wrote:

The best way (at least for me and whippersnapper, I think) for integrating the weapons to the chassis in a way VTOLs don't look like an upside-down tank with wings is to make them already integrated.

yes. i agree 100%. only in World War 1 were weaps NOT integrated into the chassis / wings. i also see wz Vtols as at least "Harrier-like" in engineering aerodynamics - just that pumpkin simplified the gfx because they didn't wanna invest in more sophisticated animations

but getting back to your Scout /UAV, Olrox..... I take it a step further. along with the player starting any game at any tech level with 2 trucks... I would also include 2 Scouts/UAVs to that package. that totally KISS change would effectively re-vitalize MP game play. I would justify it's military soundness in this way - what makes you think a military force would wander in aimlessly and blindly on the ground into a territory to establish a base ? that is a ridiculous proposition.. of course they'd scout it out first by air, then move in the start base ground force. it would also be a simple modification to all the stock maps.

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[Olrox]

Yeah, building up a base in a place "in the middle of nowhere" sounds very strange. Perhaps that should be added as an start-game option, like "start with bases/build bases", for those who don't like the idea.

[whippersnapper]

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i should have been clearer and given more details.

the scouts would be part of a MOD. the mod itself would presume that your start base positions on the map had been PRE-Scouted and that those scouts would remain with your 2 trucks to build your base and scout the remaining map immediately. (ALSO - as a MOD, it would be a game MODE unto itself, distributable in MP of course, and would thus require NO game GUI modifications.)

these 2 scouts would have a sensor package and no weaps... they would not be in your build menu and they would not be in your design mechanic... but you could repair them. like the troop transport they would not require re-arming pads (they have no weaps... also like the Troop Transport, they are not designable, like i mentioned). they are strictly airborne scouts (with sensor packages) and if you lose 'em they cannot be replaced unless you build a T3 Vtol Factory (& build limit would be the same as trucks). the intention here is to transform the opening game to one weighted toward Intel gathering.... and by extension, the middle and end game. these scouts would be faster than a Bug power plant and only SAMs and the Stormbringer can take em out in the air - on the ground they would be sitting ducks to all other weaps. anyway that's the gist of it, for what it's worth.

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[Deus Siddis]

Plus, where are the hordes of dedicated RTS MPers breaking down the "gates" to play WZ because of it's special unit design mechanic ? It's been 10 years, the word is out about WZs status these days....so why does this mechanic not have a robust, thriving, following in MP ??). Just cause something is unique doesn't ensure or presume enduring success.

Why would people be breaking down doors to play a game (with ancient graphics) because of just one really good feature that it has?

A modular upgrade system is popular in a number of games outside of WZ, so it is fairly popular if done well and supported by other good features.

Hey, how do you take a feature out of the game by adding things to it?

Maybe I have misunderstood what you or others are proposing, but if you make it so vtol propulsion can only work with dedicated aircraft bodies, that is taking something away. If you change the game balance to benefit vtols that use dedicated airframes, that is taking something away.

But, as Whippersnapper said, the practical concept of it is quite reduced. Anyway, I'd NEVER remove the design stage, it's just something that allows creativity to be placed ingame, no matter how limited it is.

Maybe practical going by today's technology, but we're talking a century into the future here. Plus, if you want practical, realistic aircraft, how come you aren't also asking that they can climb to several thousand feet or move at supersonic speeds? For all practical purposes, warzone vtols really are just flying tanks.

well, it just doesn't make sense to simply adapt the body to the propulsion, this way.

Actually, I was under the impression that you and others were proposing adapting the body to propulsion. I propose the opposite- to adapt the propulsion to each body when the two are combined. The game already does this for different sized bodies and also a number of vtol bodies that are the same size- I know, I've imported the vtol propulsion model variants in blender and seen them side by side! Slightly different vtol propulsion models are used for different bodies of the same size when they use this propulsion type.

So the system is already in place, I am only proposing a content change so that flying tanks look like flying tanks and gunships look like gunships, fighters look like fighters, etc. I've already been drafting this change myself, only for wheeled propulsion to start with.

You research a chassis. Then you research a new propulsion, but how do you adapt a tank chassis to aircraft cockpits?

Who says you need to? This is the future, aircraft are not going to all look the same as they do today. In WZ currently, we have light bodies that look fine for buggies/fighters and fill those roles equally well. We have the same for light-tanks/heavy-gunships. And the same again for battle-tanks/bombers.

I mean, even if at the stage of the chassis research, blueprints for cockpit adaptation where made, it looks just awkward to just change the shape for it to fly.

Again, you don't change the chassis shape to look like a modern aircraft, you change the propulsion so that it matches the look of the chassis. A "tank" chassis would have a "flying tank" propulsion model to match it so that it looks like the VTOL from the FMV that introduces vtols. A "buggy" chassis like the viper might have wings and fins and other such high speed, agility, aerodynamics style stuff for its vtol propulsion model.

The best way (at least for me and whippersnapper, I think) for integrating the weapons to the chassis in a way VTOLs don't look like an upside-down tank with wings is to make them already integrated. Multi-turrets or weapon bays are to be combinations already made, I think. Those should be adequated to the tech tree acording to T1 T2 and T3, and both weapons are upgraded. well, if you had tank killer missiles and assault guns, you wouldn't make any more lancer-with-machineguns, I think.

The reason the weapons on the underside of vtols are so obvious though is for another couple of reasons:

1) So that it is visually obvious what kind of weapon that unit is carrying.

2) Because like those on many real life aircraft, wz's vtol weapons are turreted- they're not tucked away someplace, they have to be mounted on a turret with a 180 degree range of horizontal motion.

[Olrox]

Do you realise you're proposing to adapt propulsion to body on a thread proposing to make new bodies that fit the propulsion better?
Seriously.
And the "futuristical" aspect of the game have been discussed so many times before, that I'm already feeling a century older by remembering that. The arms race is quite evident on the game, you start with 7.62mm machineguns on wheeled vehicles to reach the top by firing a laser sattelite...
I've meant, by "pratical", the "pratical". You didn't mention that this is obvious. Most players do not care to think too much about design stages on the game, mostly putting the better weaponry they have currently available, or at least always adopting the same projects for each technological stage of every game. I've mentioned the practical concept of the design stage is quite reduced because of that, and not accounting for supposed real production.
And by adding those fighters to a mod in the future, we're going to test how practical it is to have a project for a fighter for research then for production.
Please, don't come again with that "who needs cockpits"... My arguments to defend that there are actually pilots there are simple. When you recycle a vehicle, the next combat unit produced earns its rank, its experience. How is that? Okay, assuming there where pilots somewhere on the planet controlling it by distance, they would just be reassigned. But when you loose a unit, why can't another be reassigned to the same pilot? Then, that possibility wouldn't work. If there were AI, then the same AI would be reassigned to the next combat unit produced, after recycling. But it doesn't make sense because then it would be simple as copying that AI to all units produced after that.
Ranks are experience.
Experience is for living things.
If you loose a unit's experience when it dies, you are loosing living things there.
Now, are the members of the project humans or aliens? xD

If you don't like the idea propposed by molotov, then ignore the mod when it comes out, you won't like it.
I will, and that's because I'm here to share my ideas, and not to make comments on comments about comments. I don't like off-topic chatter, send any other argument by private messages, let's not hijack this topic. I won't answer to quotes here anymore, if it is not essentially related to the topic itself.

[Deus Siddis]

Well if this is indeed a thread about making a mod then I apologize to molotov for intruding on it. My impression was the goal here was to change the trunk, partly because of this thread's location in the development forum and my impression from the topic post.

[whippersnapper]

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it is a given that the great majority of changes introduced should be done as MODs first for many common sense reasons.
there are a tiny few exceptions that go directly to trunk. this is just sound dev protocol.

one reason i will point out for doing MODs that is not so obvious is, if i may borrow a concept from Darwin, survival of the fittest...

Why would people be breaking down doors to play a game (with ancient graphics) because of just one really good feature that it has?

A modular upgrade system is popular in a number of games outside of WZ, so it is fairly popular if done well and supported by other good features.

let me answer that in full.

i was around for the heyday of wz mp in 1999-2000 when "ancient graphics" was a NON-issue. experienced wz MPers didNOT play wz for unit design, nor when MPers abandoned wz in droves did they do it regretting leaving behind unit design.

unit design in Campaign works ok.... and in skirmish too (unless you play NIKER's latest iteration of "Become Prey" wherein it's weakness as a feature is completely and utterly exposed).

when you learn wz's tech tree advance to the most effective combos as experienced MPers do because they wanna win games then unit design becomes just so much more predictable micro-management. the only time unit design plays a role in MP is with total Newbs who make the "wrong choices".... and honestly, for experienced MPers there is not much satisfaction in beating-down total Newbs who have yet to learn the predictable pathways to having any chance of winning.

for unit design to really work in MP would require the rock solid balancing you find in Star Craft and effectively reducing micro-management by, for example, what was done brilliantly in the RTS Universe At War: Earth Assault vis-a-vis unit customization. actually, pumpkin already wrote source code along the lines of how 'UAW: EA' handles unit customization. so, in sum, the way wz presently handles unit customization is far from the summit of design - form serving function, esp. in MP mode.

i also think that to improve the wz unit customization mechanic what i mentioned earlier in a different context would also apply here so let me just quote myself in full context and bold the most applicable text:

Skrim raises some of the most serious issues with Vtol game play mechanics (I would also include in that 'absolute altitude').

from what I understand, I believe the solutions will come about thru EG's work on replacing the wz ui widgets scheme, Elio's work on new GUIs and the way the command pre-sets are handled (i believe they are hard-coded now, as are the widgets and commander ai, where as optimally i think they should be handled by script-code but I'm not sure what work that would entail as far as an instruction scheme to the game engine and possibly using Lua..)

..

[Zarel]

Do you realise you're proposing to adapt propulsion to body on a thread proposing to make new bodies that fit the propulsion better?
Seriously.

So? The thread proposes one solution to the problem of ugly aircraft bodies. He proposed another solution. I don't see anything wrong with that...

[Skrim]

Yeah, building up a base in a place "in the middle of nowhere" sounds very strange. Perhaps that should be added as an start-game option, like "start with bases/build bases", for those who don't like the idea.

Yes, it sounds strange, but the entire concept of bases in WZ2100(and most other RTSs) is strange.

these 2 scouts would have a sensor package and no weaps... they would not be in your build menu and they would not be in your design mechanic... but you could repair them. like the troop transport they would not require re-arming pads (they have no weaps... also like the Troop Transport, they are not designable, like i mentioned). they are strictly airborne scouts (with sensor packages) and if you lose 'em they cannot be replaced unless you build a T3 Vtol Factory (& build limit would be the same as trucks). the intention here is to transform the opening game to one weighted toward Intel gathering.... and by extension, the middle and end game. these scouts would be faster than a Bug power plant and only SAMs and the Stormbringer can take em out in the air - on the ground they would be sitting ducks to all other weaps. anyway that's the gist of it, for what it's worth.

Good thing that the idea is a mod. In fact, the entire idea of dedicated aircraft or aircraft-specialized stuff should be a mod idea, not a game change.

Because, IMHO, I see early-availability scout aircraft with that much speed and being that hard to kill as a really easy way of gaining intel. I'd like 'em if they had about 400 speed and were vulnerable to Heavy Machineguns so that early-game units could try and kill them if they hover over one place for too long. And if you started with only 1 of them.

2) Because like those on many real life aircraft, wz's vtol weapons are turreted- they're not tucked away someplace, they have to be mounted on a turret with a 180 degree range of horizontal motion.

What modern aircraft has turrets? The last turret planes were the heavy bombers of WW2, and those were self-defense weapons. Later aircraft(and WW2 fighters) have had internally-mounted guns in the wings or chassis and missiles/bombs under the wings or in internal weaponry bays. No modern plane has a rotating turret except for helicopters*. And even helicopters have much of their weaponry on pylons.

*There is an exception case, the AL-1 Airborne Laser, which is a modified 747 built around a giant laser-cannon with a turret in it's nose.

[Olrox]

Do you realise you're proposing to adapt propulsion to body on a thread proposing to make new bodies that fit the propulsion better?
Seriously.

So? The thread proposes one solution to the problem of ugly aircraft bodies. He proposed another solution. I don't see anything wrong with that...

This is a topic about the development of a solution, that is making dedicated aircraft bodies. Making adaptive propulsion, (that's partly ingame already, as he said) is another solution. New solutions - new topics
Or at least I think so. This MODification is under development, already, so it's not a "what should we do with weird VTOLs" topic.

[whippersnapper]

This MODification is under development, already, so it's not a "what should we do with weird VTOLs" topic.

kwel. that's great news. xD i have a feeling we'll play the WRP binary again just to play with this mod in MP. mostly for years we play v.1.10 with NIKER's PURE v.1.11 (a NEWST Mod that NIKER did a wonderful job of fixing) v.1.11 Pure is an 8-year old mod that is still great fun all around but especially on some of the newer maps designs by Metalbeast, Kipman 725 & zydonk of the last couple months (it's also been heavily "re-cycled", like v.1.12 Mod, in more current Mods). from all i've seen and read i think you guys will come up with a Mod as much fun and as enduring (what I mean is peeps won't play the game binary without your Mod enabled).