whole reballance suggestion

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Troman » 07 Aug 2007, 13:09

Deathguise wrote: Weird i just modified the EMP cannon to have a blast radius of 150 squares, 95% chance to hit & damage 150, it disabled all the units on the rush map including mine but had no effect on structures. ???
Interesting, maybe I have edited data of EMP Mortar or whatever it is called. Anyway, this is a good news.

BTW I think EMP can't damage any units. And no, EMP has no effects on structures, it never had afaik.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Deathguise » 07 Aug 2007, 14:24

Originally i thought the firepower rating & blast radius damage for EMP weapons affected the EMP effect duration, but ive done a little testing and that does not appear to be the case(hardcoded i suspect).
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Chojun » 07 Aug 2007, 15:26

Yes, it is hard coded to 10 seconds.  And the duration begins at 0 again every time a unit is hit by an EMP.  This needs to be fixed so that units will not get caught in EMP-stasis indefinitely.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Troman » 07 Aug 2007, 16:22

Chojun wrote: Yes, it is hard coded to 10 seconds.  And the duration begins at 0 again every time a unit is hit by an EMP.  This needs to be fixed so that units will not get caught in EMP-stasis indefinitely.
I think this is perfect as it is. It is a task of the attacking player to make sure he can counter EMPs (and there are so many ways: direct attack, VTOLs, arty). And the probability for a unit to be 'EMPed' forever is almost 0, unless someone keeps attacking with a single unit all the time.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Deathguise » 07 Aug 2007, 16:23

Ahh that explain's why i assumed that the firepower rating affected it, the EMP cannon has a reload speed of 5 seconds so a unit can only escape from emp stasis if the EMP cannot consistently misses.

Anyway i guess this topic has took a bit of an EMP and been knocked slightly of course primarily by me :) so ill ere be quiet and let the rebalancing discussion recommence. 
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 08 Aug 2007, 05:51

In my suggestion emps have not large effect 200(nearly current flamer radius)diameter so it can catch only few non droid units and they also wouldn't lock them because first duration time for mortar emp is lesser then recharge time, second it can miss so some units wouldn't be ocked at all.
For emp bombs u have only one bomb per vtol so u need to recharge it on pad so i think even 2 seconds is too short duration.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by EvilGuru » 08 Aug 2007, 12:23

Right, physics time:
Giel wrote: we could probably relate this almost directly to the vehicle's contact surface with the ground and it's weight (not mass; here weight is Fz=m*g)
While Giels equation is correct the classic form is W = m*g, where g is approximately 9.81 on the Earths surface.

Unless Warzone is going to implement wind (of varying strengths and directions) I do not think aerodynamics will do much for Warzone -- a car may weigh 1,200kg, a tank on the other hand, while larger in volume (and surface area) will probably weigh closer to 60,000kg. Since it is not 50 times larger in its surface area and probably goes slower than the car resistance due to drag is going to be a lot lower in proportion to its weight.

Friction between the tracks and the ground however, will be an issue. The equation for this (assuming the object is moving) is F = mu*R, where F is the frictional force in Newtons, mu is the coefficient of friction (normally between 0 and 1) and R is the normal reaction force. So long as there are no external forces acting in the vertical direction (e.g. strings) R = m*g. mu can be worked out for difference surfaces by experimentation (seeing how much force is required to get a smooth block on known mass to move horizontally).

Right, now onto energy and work done. The set of equations you want are: E = 1/2*m*v^2 = Fs. E is the energy in Joules which is equal to half times the mass (in Kg) times the velocity in ms^-1 (metres per second). Notice the squared term, this basically means that to increase your speed from 2ms^-1 to 4ms^-1 takes 4 times as much energy. This is also equal to the Force applied to the object times the change in distance. How does this fit into Warzone? Well we can give each engine an energy output and then using that in combination with the mass of the unit work out its maximum velocity.

Next stop: projectile motion. Everything when dropped from a height on the Earth (so long as it is not too high) accelerates at the same rate in free-fall, that rate is refereed to as g and is about 9.81ms^-2. What does this mean? If I dropped a block of lead and a block of wood (of equal surface area/volume) both would hit the ground at the same time.

A classical example of this is with the monkey and the hunter. A monkey is sitting atop a tree, when a hunter, who has climbed up a neighbouring tree decides to shoot the monkey. The monkey however has lighting quick reflexes and so as soon as the shot leaves the barrel of the hunters gun he lets go of the branch he was holding onto. The question is, what happens to the monkey? Sadly for the monkey the laws of physics are not on his side as the bullet drops at the same rate as the monkey falls, so regardless of the distance between the hunter and the monkey (so long as neither get a chance to hit the ground) the monkey gets hit.

Projectile motion tends to use the following three equations (which are actually the equations of motion, which have many uses). These are:
  • v = u + at
  • v^2 = u^2 + 2as
  • s = ut + 0.5at^2
Where:
  • u = initial velocity, in ms^-1
  • v = final velocity, in ms^-1
  • a = acceleration, in ms^-2
  • t = time, in seconds
  • s = distance travelled, in metres
By making the following assumptions about a projectile (lets say a golf ball):
  • The motion is parabolic (so it makes an arc)
  • Air resistance is negligible
It is possible to work out how far the golf ball will travel. Todo this we need to take the horizontal and vertical components of the golf balls motion and work with them individually.

Lets assume that a golf ball is hit by a golf club and begins to travel at an angle 45 degrees to the horizontal at a speed of 10ms^-1. Using this we can work out where it will land like so:

In the vertical direction:
u = 10 * sin(45) (remember trigonometry)
s = 0 (the motion is parabolic so in overall the vertical component does not change as we land at the same height we started at)
t = ?
v = ?
a = -9.81ms^-2 (we are going against gravity).

By placing what we know into s = ut + 0.5at^2 we get: 0 = 10 * sin(45) * t - 4.905t^2. Factoring t yields: t * (10 * sin(45) - 4.905t) = 0. So therefore t equals either:
  • t = 0
  • 10 * sin(45) - 4.905t = 0 => 4.905t = 10 * sin(45) => t = (10 * sin(45)) / 4.905 => 2.883s
We now have the time!

Since there is no air resistance there is also no acceleration in the horizontal direction (Newtons first law). So since a = 0; we get: s = ut. Now we know the time of the flight and so all we need is the velocity:

u = 10 * cos(45)

Giving us: s = 2.883 * 10 * cos(45) = 20.39m. So our projectile will take 2.883 seconds to reach its final destination and will travel 20m in the horizontal direction. Using these equations we can do accurate projectiles in Warzone.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 09 Aug 2007, 05:47

Simpleer formulaes faster to calculate.Formulaes with many trigonometric functions,square roots and integrals can be awesome problem because they have most calculation time in computer.Movement doesn't need be realistic, it must look like realistic.

First post in this theme can change from time to time so please have a look.

for speed formulae developers
avable stats:
body
weight, engine output(power)
propulsion
  weight, propulsion speed multiplier
turret
weight

problem:
  make realistic formulae including with higher stats with this properties:
 
  •    
  • the heavy bodies can wield heavy weapons(without penalties)
            the light can but move slower.
       
  • Light bodies have more speed

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Chojun » 09 Aug 2007, 05:58

You're right about equation complexity.  I've seen the kinematic equations used in games; they aren't too complicated for realtime physics.  But with physics in games becoming more complex, we're starting to see Physics Chips being manufactured for that very reason.

But I think generally the Physics in Warzone is mediocre, and it suffices for the style and scope of the gameplay.  To get any more complicated than just a little more would be, IMO, effort spent in the wrong direction.

But I think a little more could be done without wasting your effort.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 10 Aug 2007, 07:26

added some changes some changes in speed formulae(look first post)

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Sonsalt » 12 Aug 2007, 01:28

I really like the Idea of re balancing the units. How far is the project?

I intended to change the veteran stats as well.

Whats your eta for your first version ?

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 12 Aug 2007, 06:06

Sonsalt wrote: I really like the Idea of re balancing the units. How far is the project?

I intended to change the veteran stats as well.

Whats your eta for your first version ?
for this purposes this topic was created,if you want take part so write suggestions and critics here.
Unit characteristics are in first message of this topic or in wikipedia(which refreshes less often).

About veteran stats I don't think that it is good for game add bonuses other then to hit.Veterans should
be not stronger and they shouldn't be killed harder than others, but they should be more effective then green ones.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Sonsalt » 12 Aug 2007, 23:01

I totally agree. The veteran status shouldn't increase hit points, but accuracy, range, damage and speed should be affected.

A high ranked veteran should clearly have some strong advantages.


I also have some Idea about the accuracy of machine guns. In my opinion they should be less accurate, at least without the important updates.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 14 Aug 2007, 05:18

about range I agree it can be larger a bit for more expirienced units.
But what can I say about damage and speed:
first if we make it's increment with experience all unit it would look like all units have nano mechanisms
  that reconstruct unit after level up(not so realistic)
second,more serious,all viecle units in my suggestion are killed after 3-4 hits, after some researches even more deadlier(2-3) hits.More damage will ruin WZ experience mechanics.(obut spead I can't say nothing bad) if we make spead(same for range) incriment 5% for each level and upgrade it wouldn't ruin balance i think.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Ursa » 14 Aug 2007, 06:05

That's not warzone... I like warzone

My Large Cannon Python Tracks shouldn't be killable in 2-3 hits with another large cannon. Or do I misunderstand you?

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