whole reballance suggestion

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bormoth
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whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 02 Aug 2007, 10:00

base formulas
  PPRM = PropulsionPowerRatioMultiplier

  max speed=PPRM/100%*body energy output*max(1, (body weight)/(turret weight+propulsion weight))
  max speed on inclained surface=PPRM/100%*body energy output*max(1, 0.75* (body weight)/
                                            /(turret weight+propulsion weight))
  hit ratio=(max hit ratio - min hit ratio)*level/9+min hit ratio
  speed bonus=max speed*0.05*level;(so for inclained surface speed)
  range bonus=range*0.05(0.025 for artillery)*level
  damge  after armor=damage*0.94^armor
level its unit rank +reserch level of proper attribute

turrets
  name            | hp    |  damage | radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy|shoot
                      |bonus|              |          |      |        | hit  |hit    |    cost |in move
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
machine gun      |99    |  10      |768    |100 | 80    |10%|25%| 80        |  y
twin machin gun |105    |  14      |695    |200 |170    |12%|30%|100        |  y
heavy mach gun |86    |  54      |622    |70  |260    |9%  |22%|120        |  y
assault gun      |76    |  15      |835    |200 | 220  |7%  |17%|140        |  y
twin assault gun |153  |  18      |672    |400 | 340  |16%|40%|300        |  y
pulse laser        | 102    |  20      |748    |150 |230    |14%|35%|280        |  y

laser flashlight  |45    |    10        |1536  |60  |130    |30%|56%|160        |  n
heavy laser      |45    |    18        |1440  |34  |250    |27%|50%|200        |  n
needle gun        |37    |    16        |2304  |12  |180    |35%|65%|170        |  n
rail gun            |30    |    24      |2112  |7    |260    |40%|75%|220        |  n
Gauss cannon    |37      |    40      |1920  |20  |320    |30%|56%|320        |  n
Rippler rockets  |48    |  4x65    |2688  | 5  |250    |5% |15%|170        |  n
archangel missile|40    |  8x70    |2112  |2    |340    |5% |15%|240        |  n

this turrets dial 150% damage to cyborgs, 50% to viecles,100% to soft,75% medium,50% hard

  name            | hp    |  damage | radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy|shoot
                      |bonus|              |          |      |        | hit  |hit    |    cost |in move
light cannon      |99    |    42        |768    |10 | 80    |24%|60%  | 45      |  y
cannon            |105  |    210      |695    |7  |170    |22%|55%  |100      |  y
heavy cannon    |87    |    229      |622    |7  |260    |20%|50%  | 100      |  y
HPV                |99    |    50        |806    |7  |110    |22%|55%  |140      |  y
assault cannon  |76    |    253      |641  |10 |230    |15%|37%    |240      |  y
t assault cannon|152  |    253      |595  |20 |350    |13%|32%    |240      |  y

mini-pod          |45    |    17        |2496  |25 |100    |20%|38%    |160      |  n
lancer              |39    |  2x16      |2304  |6  |110    |35%|65%    |170      |  n
tank killer          |45    |  2x37      |2112  |3  |220    |30%|56%    |240      |  n
scourge            |40    |  2x94      |1920  |1  |350    |27%|41%    |350      |  n
mini rockets arty|48    |  4x65    |2688  | 5  |250    |5% |15%    |170      |  n
angel missile      |40    |  8x70    |2112  |2    |340    |5% |15%    |240      |  n
this turrets dial 50% damage to cyborgs, 150% to viecles,100% to soft,75% medium,50% hard

  name              | hp    |  damage | radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy
                      |bonus|              |          |      |        | hit  |hit    |    cost
bunker buster    |48    |    14      |1920  |10  |80      |50%  |94%  |120
mortar              |48    |    16      |3072  |10  |110    |45%  |56%  |170
bombard mortar  |48    |    24      |2880  |8  |180    |40%  |50%  |240
mortar pepperpot|32    |    16      |2688  |30 |230    |25%  |31%  |310
howitzer            |36    |    16      |2496  |10  |110    |50%  |62%  |170
Ground Shaker    |36    |    24      |3072  |8  |180    |40%  |50%  |240
hellstorm          |32    |    16      |3456  |30 |230    |25%  |31%  |310
this turrets dial 50% damage to cyborgs, 50% to viecles,200% to soft,150% medium,100% hard and doesn't shoot while moving.

  name              | hp    |  damage          | radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy|shoot
                      |bonus|                      |          |    |        | hit  |hit    |    cost  |in move
flamer              |156  |20+3dps for 10s |  200  |10  |  80  |  40  |100  |    80    |  y
inferno              |222  |10+8dps for 5s  |  190    |20 |  180  |  40  |100  |    100    |  y
plasmite            |288  |20+3dps for 10s  |  220  | 8  |  280  |  40  |100  |    90      |  y
incidinary mortar |33    | 5+10 dps for 4s  |  3072  |10 |  110  |  45  | 56  |    170    |  n
(144 splash radius for dps for 4s like phosfor bombs)
incidinary howtzer|33  |  10+5 dps for 10s|  2496  |10|  120  |  50  |62  |    200    |  n
plasma cannon    |  0  |    9999              |  600  |1 |  380  |  100 |100  |    500    |  n

this turrets dial 100% damage to all units and buildings

  name              | hp    |  damage| radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy|shoot
                      |bonus|            |        |    |        | hit  |hit    |    cost  |in move
vtol emp missile  |66    |  1x0    |  200  |10s|  80  | 20  |  50  |    160  |  y
disables all non droids units in 200r for 6 seconds
emp turret        |48    |    0      |3072  |10  |110    |45%  |56%  |170    |  n
disables all non droids units in 200r for 2 seconds

  name              | hp    |  damage  | radius | IAS|weight| min |max  |  energy|shoot  |splash
                      |bonus|                |          |    |        | hit  |hit    |    cost  |in move|radius
Cluster bomb bay| 66    |    30        |200    |15s |  110  |100%|100%|  150    |y        |200
HEAP bomb bay  |  66  |    60        |200    |25s|  220  |100%|100%|  270  | y        |200
phosfor bomb bay| 66    | 5dps for 7s|200    |10s |  90  |100%|100%|  100  | y        |200
Thermite bomb    | 66    | 8dps for 8s|200    |20s | 180  |100%|100%|  200  | y        |200
plasmite  bomb    | 66    |15dps for 9s|200  |20s | 180  |100%|100%|  300  | y        |200

other vtol weapons are the same as ground analogs with infinite ammo.

  name              | hp    |  damage| radius | IAS|weight| min |max|  energy|shoot 
                      |bonus|              |          |    |        | hit  |hit  |    cost  |in move
Hurricane AA      |99    |  10        |768    |100 | 80    |20%|50%| 80      |  y
cyclone flack      |105    |  24      |695    |100 |170    |24%|60%|100      |  y
Whirlwind AA      |86    |  54        |622    |70  |260    |12%|44%|120      |  y

avanger SAM      |33    |  4x21    |2496  |10  |80    |20%|38%|100        |  n
vindicator SAM    |33    |  4x42    |2112  |8    |180  |20%|38%|180        |  n
AA laser            |33    |  2x42    |1920    |32  |280  |20%|38%|260        |  n

support or special
  name              | hp    |  damage| radius | IAS|weight| min |max|  energy|shoot 
                      |bonus|              |          |    |        | hit  |hit  |    cost  |in move
commander        | 150  |    0      |  800  |100 |  80    |100%|100%|100    | y
nexus              | 50    |    10      | 600  |100 |  190  |10%  |25%|120    | n
radars
  name              |hp    |range|weight|cost
                                  sight
  sensor            |100    |1150 |80    |70
  wide spectrum |50      |2350 |180  |80
  vtol strike      |100    |700  |180  |90  issue command radius 700
  cb turret        | 33    |700  |180  |70  issue command radius 3000
  vtol cb turret  | 100    |1000 |180  |110

  name              |hp    |range|weight|cost
                                  sight
constructor        |50    |700  |60      |30
repair                |80    |400  |80      |60 repair damage 5 ias 100
super rapair        |60    |400  |80      |70 *

*) if it possible then 2 damage repair in 200 splash radius with 100 IAS, else 8 damage 100 IAS
bodies
name              | hp  |energy|weight|armor|termal armor|cost
                                output
viper              |198  |540    |120    |1      |1              |100
cobra              |396  |360    |240    |2      |2              |200
python            |594  |180    |360    |3      |3              |300

bug                |158  |660    |100    |1      |1              |110
scorpion          |316  |440    |200    |2      |2              |220
mantis            |474  |220    |300    |3      |3              |330

leopard            |198  |600    |100    |2      |0              |110
panther          |396  |400    |200    |4      |1              |220
tiger              |594  |200    |300    |6      |2              |330

retaliation        |198  |600    |100    |0      |2              |100
retribution      |396  |400    |200    |1      |4              |200
vegeance        |594  |200    |300    |2      |6              |300
                     
wywern          |297  |500    |180    |2      |2              |160
dragon            |495  |300    |300    |4      |4              |320

cyborg            |198  |300    |n/a    |4      |0              |60
cyborg heavy  |396  |200    |n/a    |6      |0              |60

Tower            |396  |n/a    |n/a    |2      |0              |100  armor soft
hardcrete        |396  |n/a    |n/a    |4      |0              |100  armor hardcrete
bunker            |396  |n/a    |n/a    |6      |0              |100  armor heavy
fortess            |792  |n/a    |n/a    |4      |0              |200  armor hardcrete


propulsions
                              PPRM            hp          COST
Wheeled,GROUND        100%            99            100
Tracked,GROUND        70%            150          100
Legged,GROUND          70%              99            50
Hover,GROUND          120%              60            130
Ski,GROUND    ?(what propulsion uses it?)
Lift,AIR                    130%              120          150
Propellor,AIR            110% 
Half-Tracked,GROUND  80%              275          100
Jump,AIR  ?(what propulsion uses it?)
upgrades
  AA amunition hopper, AA chainfeed loader - each upgrade increases rof of all antivtol turrets for 150% from base rof (Cumulative)
  AA HE Flak, AA HEAP Flak - each upgrade increases damage of all antivtol turrets(excluding aa laser) for
    50% from base damage  (Cumulative)
  AA Target Acquisition Shells, AA Target Prediction Computer, AA Thermal Imaging Sensor - increases 
    reserch level of acuracy attribute for all anti vtol weapons

  APDSB MG Bullets-each upgrade increases damage of all machinegun  turrets for 100% from base damage (Cumulative)

  Cannon Autoloader,Cannon Rapid Loader,Fast Loader-each upgrade increases RoF of all cannon turrets
    for 100% from  base RoF (Cumulative)
  APFSDS Cannon Rounds,HEAT Cannon Shells,HVAPFSDS Cannon Rounds-each upgrade increases
    damage of all cannon turrets for 33% from  base damage (Cumulative)
  Cannon Laser Designator, Cannon Laser Rangefinder- increases reserch level of acuracy attribute for
    all  cannon weapons by 1

  Fast Fire Mini-Rockets-each upgrade increases RoF of all mini-pod, mini rockets arty,angel
    missiles turrets for 100% from base RoF (Cumulative)
  HE Mini-Rockets,HEAP Mini-Rockets-each upgrade increases Damage of all mini-pod, mini rockets
    arty,angel missiles turrets for 50% from base damage (Cumulative)
  Advanced Missile Allocation System,Stabilized Mini-Rockets(1-2)- each level increases reserch level of
    acuracy attribute for minipod, mini rockets arty,angel missiles  weapons

  Advanced Missile Warhead,HEAT Rocket Warhead,HESH Rocket Warhead - each upgrade increases
    damage of all lancecaster,tank killer,archangel, ripler rockets,bunker buster turrets for 33% from base
    damage (Cumulative)
  Improved Rocket Wire Guidance,Advanced Missile,Search & Destroy Missiles -  each level increases 1
    reserch level of acuracy attribute lancecaster,tank killer,archangel, ripler rockets,bunker buster
    weapons
  Rocket Autoloader(1,2)- each upgrade increases RoF of all lancecaster,tank killer,archangel,
    ripler rockets,bunker buster turrets for 150% from base RoF (Cumulative)

  Flamer Autoloader-each upgrade increases RoF of all flamer turrets  for 100% from  base RoF
    (Cumulative)
  High Temperature Flamer Gel,Superhot Flamer Gel,Superhot Plasmite gel-each upgrade increases
    damage of all flamer turrets  for 33% from base damage (Cumulative)

  Mortar Autoloader,Mortar Fast Loader-each upgrade increases Rof of howitzer ground
    shaker,hellstorm turrets for 75% from  base RoF (Cumulative)
  HE Mortar Shells,HEAP Mortar Shells-each upgrade increases damage of all mortar turrets for 50% from
    base damage (Cumulative)
  Howitzer Autoloader-each upgrade increases Rof of howitzer ground
    shaker,hellstorm turrets for 100% from  base RoF (Cumulative)
  HE Howitzer Shells,HEAP Howitzer Shells-each upgrade increases damage of howitzer ground
    shaker,hellstorm turrets for 50% from  base damage (Cumulative)
  Mortar Targeting Computer,Target Acquisition Mortar Shells,Target Prediction Artillery Shells-each level increases 1 reserch level of acuracy attribute mortar and howitzer weapons

  Fast energy accumulation-each upgrade increases Rof of laser turrets for 100% from  base RoF
    (Cumulative)
  Hi-Energy Laser Emitter-each upgrade increases damage of all laser(including AA Laser) type turrets for
    100% from base damage (Cumulative)
  Improved Laser Focusing-increases 3 reserch level of acuracy attribute of laser weapons

Hardened Rail Dart --each upgrade increases Damage of railgun type turrets for 100% from  base
  damage (Cumulative)
Rail Gun ROF -each upgrade increases Rof of railgun type turrets for 100% from  base RoF (Cumulative)
Improved electromagnetic focusing(1-3)-each level increases 1 reserch level of acuracy attribute of rail
  gun type weapons

  Advanced Base Structure Materials,Hardened Base Structure Materials,
    Reinforced Base Structure Materials-each upgrade increases armor of
    all structures for 33% from base armor(Cumulative)(excluding hardcrete bodies and foretress)

  High Intensity Thermal Armor,Thermal Armor-each upgrade increases armor of all viechle bodies for
    50% from base armor (Cumulative)

  Cyborg Composite Alloys, Cyborg Dense Composite Alloys,Cyborg Superdense Composite Alloys-each
    upgrade increases armor of all cyborgs for 35% from base armor  (Cumulative)

  Cyborg High Intensity Thermal Armor,Cyborg Superdense Thermal Armor,Cyborg Thermal Armor -each
    upgrade increases thermal armor of all cyborgs for 30% from thermal base armor  (Cumulative)

  Composite Alloys,Dense Composite Alloys,super Dense Composite Alloys- each upgrade increases Armor
    of all bodies except buildings and cyborg  for 33% from  base armor (Cumulative)
  Dedicated Synaptic Link Data Analysis-each upgrade gives 2 armor vs nexus weapon

  Improved Hardcrete,Plascrete,Plasteel,Supercrete-each upgrade increases armor all hardcrete bodies
    and foretress for 25% from base armor(Cumulative)

  Fuel Injection Engine,Gas Turbine Engine,Turbo-Charged Engine-each upgrade increases energy output
    of all bodies  for 1% from  energy output RoF (Cumulative)

Other Non turret modiffication upgrades are the same as in original
   
same as here inhttp://wiki.wz2100.net/development:rebalance_suggestion
Thanks to:
Watermelon -- for good armor reduction formulae
Sonsalt      -- for some ideas about veterancy
Last edited by bormoth on 20 Sep 2007, 07:29, edited 1 time in total.

Giel
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Giel » 02 Aug 2007, 13:23

Actually I think body, turret and propulsion mass should just be summed up together. And then energy output should be divided by the total mass rather than multiplied. At least if you want reasonably realistic physics.

Since the required force for an acceleration "a" = F = m * a. Where the total amount of delivered force that actually "helps" the acceleration depends on the engine's (kinetic) energy output minus the amount of (aerodynamic) drag and rolling resistance.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Chojun » 02 Aug 2007, 15:02

Physics teaches that the force due to aerodynamic drag is negligible unless the object is moving at a "high" rate of speed.

The problem is that I've never had ANY physics professor define what "high" is.  So, unless you're the space shuttle, or a giant piece of cardboard standing streight up in the air, the force due to air resistance is negligible.

But the equation is F = bv where "b" is a constant.  For objects moving at a "high" rate of speed, the equation changes to F= bv^2, and I think VTOLs are the only game object that would really classify to have a non-trivial amount of air resistance.

Anyway, back on topic, I agree that the game needs some minor rebalancing.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Giel » 03 Aug 2007, 00:10

Chojun wrote: Physics teaches that the force due to aerodynamic drag is negligible unless the object is moving at a "high" rate of speed.

The problem is that I've never had ANY physics professor define what "high" is.  So, unless you're the space shuttle, or a giant piece of cardboard standing streight up in the air, the force due to air resistance is negligible.
This does not only depend on what "high" is, it also depends on what "negligible" is defined as. And considering that, nowadays, just about every car manufacturer, pays lots of attention, on aerodynamics when designing cars, means that you don't have to be a "space shuttle, or a giant piece of cardboard standing streight up in the air" for the aerodynamic resistance to count.
Chojun wrote: But the equation is F = bv where "b" is a constant.  For objects moving at a "high" rate of speed, the equation changes to F= bv^2, and I think VTOLs are the only game object that would really classify to have a non-trivial amount of air resistance.

Anyway, back on topic, I agree that the game needs some minor rebalancing.
Never seen that equation before. What constant is 'b' (name not a number please)? Plus equations that change depending on one of their factors are equations I would never want to use.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 03 Aug 2007, 09:12

energy output is speed factor and weght of body- is sign of how much weight it can carry without overload.
so heavy weapons not to be settled to light bodies and thtere is no reason settle light weapons on heavy ones.Watermelon says that current speed formulae is
PPRM = PropulsionPowerRatioMultiplier

[name],[type],[PPRM]
Wheeled,GROUND,80
Tracked,GROUND,80
Legged,GROUND,100
Hover,GROUND,120
Ski,GROUND,100
Lift,AIR,130
Propellor,AIR,100
Half-Tracked,GROUND,80
Jump,AIR,200

speed = PPRM * engineoutput / weight

if vtol and medium body then speed * 3/4
if vtol and heavy body then speed * 1/4(this one is ridiculous imo...)
but it doesn't seems to work

may I ask moderator of this forum peen this topic

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Giel » 03 Aug 2007, 14:28

bormoth wrote: may I ask moderator of this forum peen this topic
If by "peen" you mean "stickify" then sorry, but no. I suggest you add an article to the Warzone 2100 Wiki (I suggest http://wiki.wz2100.net/development:rebalance_suggestion ) and then add a link to that article on the wishlist.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Chojun » 03 Aug 2007, 16:10

Giel wrote: This does not only depend on what "high" is, it also depends on what "negligible" is defined as. And considering that, nowadays, just about every car manufacturer, pays lots of attention, on aerodynamics when designing cars, means that you don't have to be a "space shuttle, or a giant piece of cardboard standing streight up in the air" for the aerodynamic resistance to count.
What the manufacturers don't tell you is how much of a factor aerodynamics is in fuel efficiency.  In fact, manufacturers are mostly concerned with how the air will push the car into the ground for better cornering, etc.  Make the car too aerodynamic and you get an airfoil..  Case-in-point any drag-racer that has lost one of its spoilers...
Never seen that equation before. What constant is 'b' (name not a number please)? Plus equations that change depending on one of their factors are equations I would never want to use.
"b" is the constant of drag associated with the simplified equation.  In introductory Physics courses b is a constant that is given (sorta like how the coefficient of static/kinetic friction is always "given").  If you want to determine "b" for yourself, it involves complex Calculus.  And we still wouldn't be so lucky to have objects' surfaces be defined by simple continuous equations that we could just stick into a triple integral and evaluate.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by lav_coyote25 » 03 Aug 2007, 17:23

ok... i know everyone would like to see real world kinetics....  but this is a game... if its out by a few hairs... who is going to complain... ???
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Giel » 03 Aug 2007, 19:02

Chojun wrote: "b" is the constant of drag associated with the simplified equation.  In introductory Physics courses b is a constant that is given (sorta like how the coefficient of static/kinetic friction is always "given").  If you want to determine "b" for yourself, it involves complex Calculus.  And we still wouldn't be so lucky to have objects' surfaces be defined by simple continuous equations that we could just stick into a triple integral and evaluate.
Ah, so you're just trying to calculate the friction on the surface of the vehicle itself with that formula ? Well I've had about three years of fluid dynamics and I think that should apply fairly similar to aerodynamics as well (only with different values, but the mechanics should be the same). Anyway I wouldn't say it is complex calculus, although there are quite a lot of factors. The most difficult thing IMO is obtaining values such as surface "smoothness" and to calculate the friction caused by colliding that surface with air at some velocity.

Friction really isn't the largest factor I think though. The differences in air pressure caused by objects moving through that air will be _much_ larger. And that's also easier to calculate (most important factors are air density and the vehicle's speed).

Anyhow to get back to the point I think that in order to achieve realistic movement (i.e. accelartion & top-speed) the most important factors are:
  • Newton's second law (F=m*a)
  • rolling resistance; we could probably relate this almost directly to the vehicle's contact surface with the ground and it's weight (not mass; here weight is Fz=m*g)
  • The engine's maximum energy output (or more accurately: the engine's maximum delivered forward directed force or momentum)
lav_coyote25 wrote: ok... i know everyone would like to see real world kinetics....  but this is a game... if its out by a few hairs... who is going to complain... ???
Erm, if we just want to improve the game that won't be a problem I hope? Since, I believe that, we're just discussing which factors are the most significant in achieving "realistic" movement. So whether people will or will not complain is really not very relevant here.

Especially so since I am usually less motivated to help people who tend to "complain/whine" rather than to make suggestions or requests. So this is about what we want, not about what other people might _not_ like (e.g. "bad" physics).
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Watermelon » 04 Aug 2007, 01:16

coyote's right,it is absolutely nonsense to do 1:1 copy of academic physics and shyts.A game's ultimate goal is to entertain the audiences,not some testing ground for the sloppy maths and physics.

also I would like to point out that the topic is 'whole rebalance suggestion' not 'unit movement suggestion'
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Per » 04 Aug 2007, 13:10

I'd love to see some more fun physics in the game. Fun physics in fiction is rarely realistic, just like fictitious physics in reality is not fun.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Giel » 04 Aug 2007, 15:56

Per wrote: I'd love to see some more fun physics in the game. Fun physics in fiction is rarely realistic, just like fictitious physics in reality is not fun.
[offtopic]
I see, you want magic right?
[/offtopic]

Anyway, the only think I'd like to see is that vehicles actually need to accellerate (which they do currently, but you hardly notice that they do, plus it's independent from their body mass I think).
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by bormoth » 07 Aug 2007, 06:42

Is it possible to make disables by emps in some radius?

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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Troman » 07 Aug 2007, 11:41

bormoth wrote: Is it possible to make disables by emps in some radius?
I was trying to do this, but looks like EMP weapons currently don't support this. Some changes to the source are needed.
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Re: whole reballance suggestion

Post by Deathguise » 07 Aug 2007, 12:45

Troman wrote:I was trying to do this, but looks like EMP weapons currently don't support this. Some changes to the source are needed.quote
Weird i just modified the EMP cannon to have a blast radius of 150 squares, 95% chance to hit & damage 150, it disabled all the units on the rush map including mine but had no effect on structures. ???
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