The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

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Zarel
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The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Zarel » 30 Aug 2009, 08:24

So here, we discuss all the balance and balance-related changes between 2.2 -> 2.3/3.0

Here's a list of changes:

Renames:
- Mini-Rocket Artillery renamed Mini-Rocket Array
- MRL Emplacement renamed Mini-Rocket Battery
- Angel Missile renamed Short-Range Missile Array (SRMA) (should eliminate the "angel missile won't fire!" complaints)
- Angel Missile Battery renamed Short-Range Missile Battery

VTOL balance:
- Hurricane damage increased 40 -> 50, splash increased 10 -> 30
- Cyclone damage increased 50 -> 70, splash increased 40 -> 60
- Whirlwind damage increased 50 -> 60, splash increased 20 -> 30
- Avenger damage increased 320 -> 360, accuracy increased 60-70 -> 70-80
- Vindicator damage increased 320 -> 360, accuracy increased 60-70 -> 70-80
- Plasmite Bomb weight increased 8000 -> 12000
- Mini-pod can hit air

Late-game stalemate-busting:
- Artillery to hover multiplier decreased from 110% to 25%
- Artillery to tracks multiplier decreased from 65% to 40%
- Artillery to half-tracks multiplier decreased from 80% to 60%
- Artillery to wheels multiplier decreased from 95% to 80%
- Anti-tank to hover multiplier decreased from 100% to 90%
- All-rounder to hover multiplier increased from 100% to 130%
- Bunker-buster to hover multiplier increased from 20% to 60%
- AP to hard multiplier increased from 45% to 55%
- SRMA (see "Renames") range increased from 5-11 to 5-14

Truck rush prevention:
- Command Center must be built before any defensive structure (such as MG tower) can be researched
- Truck HP decreased 50 -> 20
- Truck weight increased 600 -> 800
- New "Improved Truck" (better name welcome) with 12 build points, 100 HP, and 500 weight. Prereq: Improved Engineering

Structure research price cuts:
- Inferno bunker research price 150 -> 125
- Plasmite bunker research price 150 -> 125

General making things make more sense:
- Move CB/VTOL-strike/VTOL-CB turrets before towers, change turret price to tower price, change tower price to something ridiculously low

Thoughts? Ideas?

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by devastator » 30 Aug 2009, 09:04

Hmm..i don't know what is better,making AA better or making upgrading AA cheaper...
You can call improved truck-"A.M.B.(advanced mobile builder)",or someting like this )
I think you should make mini-pod rocket upgrades cheaper,because i found them useless at ALL games I played.Launchers are good,but wasting much money on mini-pods to get them is anoying and wasting of money.Minipods shoud become cheaper for massive producing to outrange MG/Light Cannon and bring them enough damage.But upgrades themselves must be the same.
I think artilery must be changed.Artilery just itself can't bring you victory,but if you started building units,wasting money on artilery is just making game longer..What should we do with artilery?I think it's possible to...hm..what about earlier mortar model?Like scavenger mortar at NTW.It should be possible to get this model early to protect yuor base from any earlier tehnologies.It shoud have a bit longer range then MG.Using this defense player will have time to upgrade mortars.But anyway,many MG units(or TMG/HMG) are still able to break any mortar defense.You can change nothing with this,or you can make special upgrade for mortars wich will make their shoots slow enemie units,to let them get more shoots.Or something like this..
I recomend to make cyborg-armor upgrades faster then any other armor-upgrades.Cyborgs are useless at fighting with MG tehnologies at early games.That's a variant how to change it.
I have some more ideas,but i wanna some of your coments about these.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Corporal Punishment » 30 Aug 2009, 11:55

The Mini-pod-missile IS pretty useless in skirmish/MP mode, that's true. Well, not really. Once it is fully upgraded, it becomes an interesting defensive structure and is good for VTOL tank hunters. In campaign mode, though, it is quite logical that the initial mini-pod is pretty weak. Remember, you get it as your first missile-based weapon from the puny scavengers. Your engineers work off of that and develop all other missile technology. How should something made up of scrap by a band of post-nukear raiders be highly destructive?
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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Thyranim » 30 Aug 2009, 12:01

Zarel wrote:Renames:
- Angel Missile renamed Short-Range Missile Array (SRMA) (should eliminate the "angel missile won't fire!" complaints)
- Angel Missile Battery renamed Short-Range Missile Battery
Great idea, i wanted to say something like that as i've read the thread-title
so signed
Zarel wrote:Truck rush prevention:
- Command Center must be built before any defensive structure (such as MG tower) can be researched
- Truck HP decreased 50 -> 20
- Truck weight increased 600 -> 800
- New "Improved Truck" (better name welcome) with 12 build points, 100 HP, and 500 weight. Prereq: Improved Engineering
Hm, something simple like "Grand Truck"?
Question: 12 Build Points, how many build points does the normal truck have?

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Per » 30 Aug 2009, 14:11

I like the suggestions in the first post.

I do not see how mini-pod is useless. It is perfect for hit run tactics against enemy units on larger maps. I can understand why you may not want to use them on tiny 1v1 maps, though.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Tenoh » 30 Aug 2009, 16:11

Interesting notes.
For the new truck i would name it ither Advance Truck or Advance Construction Vehicle short ACV.
For AA i would increase range of missiles.Slow fire but long range would be perfect reflection of real weaponry.
As i dont play online i tend to alter my own damage numbers :p.
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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by devastator » 30 Aug 2009, 16:38

On big maps minipods will not become enough big force before oponent will make something realy effective.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Avestron » 30 Aug 2009, 17:03

Thoughts on:

Trucks

A change of name to 'constructor' and 'hyper constructor' would be my suggestion (wheeled constructor viper).

It would permit (though not necessitate) a complete departure from the truck theme if desired.

- - - - -

Anti-Air

I still think that the simplest solution would be reduction of VTOL propulsion toughness to 75% without the need for significant AA tweaks.

I also think that versatile units should suffer accuracy penalties depending upon the speed of the aircraft.

I also think that VTOLs like bombers should not be ignored by your defending AA units until they start dropping the bombs (has happened before - I think its because the player was 'hopping' the unit - would be nice if there is an altitude where 'both' AA and land units can blast them)

- - - - -

Cyborg Armour

I personally am of the opinion that cyborg armour increases should be tied to vehicle armour increases. First composite alloys 1 - and then cyborg composite alloys 1. Cost and time should also be shifted upon the vehicle research - I would say 50% of all time and cost should be shifted on the vehicle research since cyborg composites would be just about applying the armour composites to the cyborg frame.

I disagree that machinegun cyborgs are useless incidentally.Cyborgs are fast and maneuverable and the machineguns work great in numbers.

- - - - -

Artillary

Similar to Anti Air I would suggest that artillary suffers penalties relative to the speed of the target concerned. Mortar should have a significantly greater hit rate against a tracked vehicle than a hover vehicle. Damage should not take such a big hit however.

The thing about Artillary is that it should be effective against slower and stationary targets...

As such I'd suggest the following modifications:

100 cyborg
100 wheeled
080 half track
060 track
100 hover
150 Soft Structures
100 Medium Structures
75 Hard Structures
30 Bunkers
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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Zarel » 30 Aug 2009, 18:07

Avestron wrote:Artillary

Similar to Anti Air I would suggest that artillary suffers penalties relative to the speed of the target concerned. Mortar should have a significantly greater hit rate against a tracked vehicle than a hover vehicle. Damage should not take such a big hit however.

The thing about Artillary is that it should be effective against slower and stationary targets...

As such I'd suggest the following modifications:

100 cyborg
100 wheeled
080 half track
060 track
100 hover
150 Soft Structures
100 Medium Structures
75 Hard Structures
30 Bunkers
The problem is that we can't change accuracy based on target. The only thing we can change, using the current game engine, is damage.

Which is fine with me, because unless you have a rapid-fire weapon, its accuracy shouldn't be pushed below 60% or so. It's bad balance.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Avestron » 30 Aug 2009, 18:18

Zarel wrote: The problem is that we can't change accuracy based on target. The only thing we can change, using the current game engine, is damage.

Which is fine with me, because unless you have a rapid-fire weapon, its accuracy shouldn't be pushed below 60% or so. It's bad balance.
Thats a good explanation - thanks.
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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by devastator » 30 Aug 2009, 18:56

I didn't say machingun cyborhs useles(but it's also true).I said machingun units(since twin machingun) makes cyborgs useless.So cyborgs need faster armor getting to become dangerous.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Deus Siddis » 30 Aug 2009, 19:08

Zarel wrote:So here, we discuss all the balance and balance-related changes between 2.2 -> 2.3/3.0

VTOL balance:
- Hurricane damage increased 40 -> 50, splash increased 10 -> 30
- Cyclone damage increased 50 -> 70, splash increased 40 -> 60
- Whirlwind damage increased 50 -> 60, splash increased 20 -> 30
- Avenger damage increased 320 -> 360, accuracy increased 60-70 -> 70-80
- Vindicator damage increased 320 -> 360, accuracy increased 60-70 -> 70-80

- Plasmite Bomb weight increased 8000 -> 12000
So bombs aren't useless enough already?!
- Mini-pod can hit air
I still have that dual-mini-pod rocket turret model, btw. Might extend mini-pod's AA effect for longer into the tech tree.
Late-game stalemate-busting:
- Artillery to hover multiplier decreased from 110% to 25%
That's an interesting idea.
- All-rounder to hover multiplier increased from 100% to 130%
Meh, not sure about this, hover is already so weak.
- SRMA (see "Renames") range increased from 5-11 to 5-14
You should really increase the range on the MRA as well.
Truck rush prevention:
- Command Center must be built before any defensive structure (such as MG tower) can be researched
Yuk. Structure-Research dependencies are never the answer.
- Truck HP decreased 50 -> 20
Aren't trucks already about as easy as it get to kill though?
- Truck weight increased 600 -> 800
This is not a bad idea though.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by zydonk » 30 Aug 2009, 19:13

Hasn't the problem of truck rushing been dealt with? Trucks can in any case be upgraded (strengthened) as bodies are researched.

Simply don't play with anyone using truck rushes; they are not playing WarZone.

And for those who don't want the long game, simply create an option to stop research at level 2. The end game can be the most interesting part as the AI gets real bite. I would say, Zarel, take a look at the long research strings for the Needle, the Gauss and the EMP (esp this). They come through only towards the end of a really long game. It's ages since I had EMP available.

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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by Mysteryem » 30 Aug 2009, 19:35

zydonk wrote:I would say, Zarel, take a look at the long research strings for the Needle, the Gauss and the EMP (esp this). They come through only towards the end of a really long game. It's ages since I had EMP available.
Perhaps a really weedy EMP could come earlier in the game and then slowly progress into the EMP which is currently used. Maybe a distraction style weapon. Aren't "fake" missiles used to draw away fire from the actual missile? Or is that just games and TV shows?
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Re: The 2.2 -> 2.3 Rebalance Thread

Post by coolkid » 30 Aug 2009, 20:11

So what is with making the long range artillery short range. I thought that one of the unique features was the ultra ranged arty. Hey lots of people even made a lot of raining hell pics.
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