Underpowered Anti-Air

[Avestron]

That would be the Russians in the battle for Stalingrad. Tanks were taken out by AA flak cannons.

[Zarel]

Hmm, maybe I've got the names confused, or maybe I've lost track in all the rebalances.

I had thought, that after the hurricane, you got two actually effective AA batteries, one with long range and splash damage and the other with such a high fire rate that it did more DPS.

No, AA has been like this since 1.10.

http://guide.wz2100.net/1.10/w/#aa

Cyclone does 20 more splash damage (which is pretty much nothing at all, since splash damage isn't subject to damage upgrades in 1.10), but Whirlwind has 2x the DPS.

No the Goliath is an excellent ground vs ground unit. Before broodwar introduced medics, I used it in place of marines for all offensive missions (any role not involving shooting from the safety of a bunker). And if there is any danger of High Templar or Guardians, Goliaths are still the far superior choice.

Erm, compare the price of marines with goliaths. Goliaths are mainly designed for AA. That they have a gun that's marginally useful for attacking ground units is pretty minor.

That's not nearly enough of the massive weapon tree to make a difference, but even more importantly those aren't damaging enough against VTOLs to make any difference. They just have too much (totally unrealistic, btw) damage reduction versus air.

Erm... MG/laser have a 60% multiplier. Borg rockets/missiles have an 80% multiplier, which I note is the same multiplier dedicated AA will get. MG might be a bit weak, but lasers and borg rockets/missiles are excellent anti-air weapons.

[Deus Siddis]

Erm, compare the price of marines with goliaths. Goliaths are mainly designed for AA. That they have a gun that's marginally useful for attacking ground units is pretty minor.

Goliaths cost twice the minerals that marines do, but they have:

2X Ground Firepower
3X+ Air Firepower (+ Extreme Range)
3X+ Hit Points !

Erm... MG/laser have a 60% multiplier. Borg rockets/missiles have an 80% multiplier, which I note is the same multiplier dedicated AA will get. MG might be a bit weak, but lasers and borg rockets/missiles are excellent anti-air weapons.

Borg rockets are powerful, I give you that, only they fire slow and rarely hit anything, which makes them no more effective than the machine gun. Plus that is only borgs, not missiles in general, which is an extremely narrow category that makes up a very small contingent of any balanced force.

Lasers I seem to recall having a noticeable effect, but they are at the end of the tech tree. I think most of the complaints coming in are about early AA measures.

IMO, if you gave MG more than laughable AA ability (80-100% damage to VTOL propulsion), removed the only-cyborg-missiles-can-hit-air limitation, and reduced the number of dedicated AA upgrades while making them stronger off the bat, I think this issue would stop coming up.

We could finally start to get away from VTOLs being considered the "trick you use when your opponent hasn't invested in dedicated AA".

[Zarel]

Goliaths cost twice the minerals that marines do, but they have:

2X Ground Firepower
3X+ Air Firepower (+ Extreme Range)
3X+ Hit Points !

You've forgotten a few things:
1. 50 Vespene
2. Marines aren't dedicated ground-to-ground either

Also, I was planning on rebalancing AA anyway, so no need to worry about it.

[Deus Siddis]

You've forgotten a few things:

I haven't forgotten, those just aren't things worth considering, imo:

1. 50 Vespene

Vespane is renewable and almost always plentiful.

2. Marines aren't dedicated ground-to-ground either

Ghosts and Firebats do only 25% damage against everything except other infantry, which makes marines your only anti-armor-air-structure infantry. They are the "missile borgs" of Starcraft. But Goliaths just do their job better most of the time.

And since Goliaths do 2.5X more damage to non-infantry versus the Vulture, their only competition for ground-to-ground combat is from the Siege Tank in its tank mode.

Also, I was planning on rebalancing AA anyway, so no need to worry about it.

Cool.

Might want to make bombs useful after that (currently WZ's longest running sever imbalance, imo).

[Avestron]

Plasmite bombs 'are' deadly. ^_^;;;

[Zarel]

And since Goliaths do 2.5X more damage to non-infantry versus the Vulture, their only competition for ground-to-ground combat is from the Siege Tank in its tank mode.

And against a full ground assault, would you pick goliaths or siege tanks?

My entire point is that the goliath isn't a ground-to-ground unit with a small air attack, it's a ground-to-air with a small ground attack.

[Haku]

Sorry if I come off as rude but its just when someone doesn't invest in something such as anti-tank or anti-air weapons it shouldn't really require a nerf when there is adequate AA defences available and w/new updates more weapons that can act as secondary AA defences.

We could finally start to get away from VTOLs being considered the "trick you use when your opponent hasn't invested in dedicated AA".

Sounds like nerfing the strength of using VTOL's due to the people who slack off at integrating AA into their defences and prefer ground only combat. Plus if people dont bother w/using especially researching upgrades to AA then they deserve the punishment VTOL's can dish out. "Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness." Just my two cents that I think it's more the player that needs to adjust to using or not using VTOL's in Skirmish.

[Haku]

Plasmite bombs 'are' deadly. ^_^;;;

Fun too and there used to be a glitch to make tanks with heap bombs bay back in the 1.xx days Also the VTOL versions of the lancer, cannon, rail gun, etc were pretty overpowered when this glitch was used.

[Avestron]

Sorry if I come off as rude but its just when someone doesn't invest in something such as anti-tank or anti-air weapons it shouldn't really require a nerf when there is adequate AA defences available and w/new updates more weapons that can act as secondary AA defences.

Actually I've played one on one games when I've specialized in AA guns (skipping the hurricane) (and units) because I knew the opponent would rush for VTOL tech. I'd have a nice defensive line and the VTOLs would just smash them (and thats with MG-focus - rolling out the first assault gunners as the thermite bombs start dropping... and the funny thing would be that the assault gunners would be more effective (strange that cyborg machine gunners don't attack air targets))

So yes while the end game AA tech is powerful enough the T1/ T2 phases favour VTOLS.

[Andreas XXL]

I did not read the whole thread but I think Rocket anti air is nearly useless.

For example there are many enemy VTOLs comming to your base and you have a lot of anti air Rockets.
They aim at the first VTOL in range and begin to fire. (The rockets are not so fast as the anti air guns).
So it tankes some time until the first rocket hits the first VTOL.
In this time the other anti air rockets fire too. But the aim at the same VTOL, because it is the first in range.

So nearly all anti air Rockets are fired to the first VTOL.
This VTOL will be destroyed. but it takes long time to reload the anti air Rockets.
In this time the VTOL attack your base and the anti air defence can't do anything.

Ok, a solution is to build only few rocket anti air and many other.
But I think it would be better if the Rocket anti air wold not all fire at the same VTOL.
If they would aim at different VTOLs the anti air Rockets would be much more usefull.

[Deus Siddis]

And against a full ground assault, would you pick goliaths or siege tanks?

If I was only going to be attacked by ground forces I would build 'Tanks, unless they were mostly infantry.

Vultures have the edge against infantry, Goliaths have the (only) edge against air and Arclites have the edge against armor. But Goliaths fill in any of the three roles well, they are just better at air than their other roles.

My entire point is that the goliath isn't a ground-to-ground unit with a small air attack, it's a ground-to-air with a small ground attack.

The Goliath is a versatility focused unit with a medium general purpose ground attack and a heavy air attack, for its cost.

Sounds like nerfing the strength of using VTOL's due to the people who slack off at integrating AA into their defences and prefer ground only combat. Plus if people dont bother w/using especially researching upgrades to AA then they deserve the punishment VTOL's can dish out. "Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness." Just my two cents that I think it's more the player that needs to adjust to using or not using VTOL's in Skirmish.

AA is the poster child for over-specialization. Nothing else is that limited.

The best way things could work, IMO, is for AA to have some ground attack, and for machineguns, lasers and missiles to be effective against small waves of light VTOLs. The more dedicated AA systems come in when you need to shoot down "rebalanced bombers", that are both hard for other weapons to kill (because they have armor too heavy for machine guns and lasers) and that carry very dangerous heavy ordinance that you need to stop from being dropped in your base or on your tank colums.

This might require implementing a second kind of VTOL propulsion that is heavier and able to carry heavier weapons (like bomb bays) at reasonable speeds and with greater survivability. And AA would be one of your only reliable solutions against this specific and dangerous kind of VTOL threat. The lighter stuff could be taken out by general purpose weapons, like I said.

[dragoncrusher]

armor upgrade =)
its like i can send 1 vtol with the medium black body, and it can survive agains 5 or more vidicator missile =)

pretty much, once you research everything in MP, your VTOL is GOD!!

[kipman725]

not sure if the functionality is broken but pretty sure there is a tower you can assign vtols to such that they attack incoming vtols. Large numbers of light cannon vtol are quite effective.

[Zarel]

The Goliath is a versatility focused unit with a medium general purpose ground attack and a heavy air attack, for its cost.

Agreed. Let's end here; I feel kind of silly arguing StarCraft gameplay on the Warzone forums.

armor upgrade =)
its like i can send 1 vtol with the medium black body, and it can survive agains 5 or more vidicator missile =)

pretty much, once you research everything in MP, your VTOL is GOD!!

Yeah, well, it'll still fall to a few Stormies.

I did not read the whole thread but I think Rocket anti air is nearly useless.

For example there are many enemy VTOLs comming to your base and you have a lot of anti air Rockets.
They aim at the first VTOL in range and begin to fire. (The rockets are not so fast as the anti air guns).
So it tankes some time until the first rocket hits the first VTOL.
In this time the other anti air rockets fire too. But the aim at the same VTOL, because it is the first in range.

So nearly all anti air Rockets are fired to the first VTOL.
This VTOL will be destroyed. but it takes long time to reload the anti air Rockets.
In this time the VTOL attack your base and the anti air defence can't do anything.

I'd probably increase their speed to match. I'm planning on doing the same to machinegun, for the same reason.