Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

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Tsade
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Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Tsade » 10 May 2009, 16:34

I am playing wz2100 since a few weeks only and haven't played much vs players (but with), so my opinion and suggestion might not be the one of the older players.

The MG Guard Tower Rush is easily done due to 2 factors:
- You will always have Trucks at the start of a game
- It only has 1 technology as requirement

The addition of factories, power plants and oil derricks is what gives it speed and long lasting power (not power as in the ressource). The other possibilities for rushing, MG Viper Wheels/etc, are not fast enough, since they need more technologies, more factories and the HQ. I have some suggestions to make the game more enjoyable and lasting, since a good MG Guard Tower rush can defeat an enemy in <10min.

Slower Trucks/etc:
- Reduce the max. speed of Wheels to 150 and introduce a new wheel technology that comes around the time of Half-Tracks (either before or after is fine) with the original Wheels 175 speed.
This will reduce the effectiveness of all rushes.

Reduced defenses/hp:
- The MG Guard Tower can destroy several tanks before it is destroyed, it may be (one of) the weakest defense structures, but early on it is superior to all offenses.

Change the requirements:
- Swap Sensor Tower and MG Guard Tower in the tech tree or
- Make it require any of the MG Upgrades (Hardened MG Bullets being the earliest) or
- Make it require Engineering or
There's so many ways to introduce it later in the game, that you probably got the point already.

Make Machinegun baseline:
- With Machinegun as baseline, the design should of MG Viper Wheels should be default (like Trucks).
With this both MG Viper and MG Tower will have about the same speed, both requiring only 1 building (Factory/Research Center+research).

Defense structures are fine, as long as they are used for defense, but being able to take down an enemy with them is too much.

I'd appreciate the opinion of others on this.

Per
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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Per » 10 May 2009, 17:12

Another way is to make the truck component heavier, which would slow down trucks without making wheels propulsion worse.

Or we could put some guns on the HQ :twisted:

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Zarel » 10 May 2009, 17:27

Tsade wrote:I am playing wz2100 since a few weeks only and haven't played much vs players (but with), so my opinion and suggestion might not be the one of the older players.

The MG Guard Tower Rush is easily done due to 2 factors:
- You will always have Trucks at the start of a game
- It only has 1 technology as requirement

The addition of factories, power plants and oil derricks is what gives it speed and long lasting power (not power as in the ressource). The other possibilities for rushing, MG Viper Wheels/etc, are not fast enough, since they need more technologies, more factories and the HQ. I have some suggestions to make the game more enjoyable and lasting, since a good MG Guard Tower rush can defeat an enemy in <10min.
Oh, we know about the problem with the MG tower rush very much. I've been considering a number of solutions, but I haven't come upon a complete fix yet, so I'd love to hear suggestions.

Currently, the fixes that have been applied is:
- Make truck build slightly slower (8 down from 10)
- HP decreased from 600 to 450
Tsade wrote:Slower Trucks/etc:
- Reduce the max. speed of Wheels to 150 and introduce a new wheel technology that comes around the time of Half-Tracks (either before or after is fine) with the original Wheels 175 speed.
This will reduce the effectiveness of all rushes.
...interesting. A different idea would be to increase the weight of a truck turret to slow it down. We could even have an "improved truck" researchable later-game to restore the original weight and construction speed.
Tsade wrote:Reduced defenses/hp:
- The MG Guard Tower can destroy several tanks before it is destroyed, it may be (one of) the weakest defense structures, but early on it is superior to all offenses.
It's intended to be effective in preventing an early tank rush from overwhelming your base, so I don't want to decrease it too much. I guess it can go down to 400, though.
Tsade wrote:Change the requirements:
- Swap Sensor Tower and MG Guard Tower in the tech tree or
- Make it require any of the MG Upgrades (Hardened MG Bullets being the earliest) or
- Make it require Engineering or
There's so many ways to introduce it later in the game, that you probably got the point already.
Introducing it later in the game also causes the problem that it interferes with its intention to be a counter for early MG tank rushes. I've been considering making it require CC or Engineering, but it seems too much.
Tsade wrote:Make Machinegun baseline:
- With Machinegun as baseline, the design should of MG Viper Wheels should be default (like Trucks).
With this both MG Viper and MG Tower will have about the same speed, both requiring only 1 building (Factory/Research Center+research).
It gives MG Viper Wheels a bit too much of advantage. Plus, I kind of like the idea of any offense requiring Research Facility. I think MG Tower should get a slight advantage - enough that you can build it at your base before the MG rush comes, but not so much that you can tower at an opponent's base before they come up with MGs.
Tsade wrote:Defense structures are fine, as long as they are used for defense, but being able to take down an enemy with them is too much.
Agreed.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Plizump » 10 May 2009, 20:42

How about leave the game alone and f***** get better ^^ snd fine nuff said gg

Tsade
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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Tsade » 10 May 2009, 22:04

The wheel upgrade is something I brought up, because late game they are pretty useless, having an upgrade with increased speed/hp would bring wheels back, otherwise Hover is superior in every way to wheels.
Plizump wrote:How about leave the game alone and fukin get better ^^ snd fine nuff said gg
I have no trouble winning and that's what's worrying me.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by 3drts » 10 May 2009, 22:13

Guns on the HQ is a terrible idea....
I was playing acid on Highground - He used his half build HQ as a dummy to draw fire from my MG towers.
The fact that it is a "hard" structure would make it a tower killer - people would start HQ rushes. get an HQ up as a super MG tower(with no pre-reqs), follow with the MG vipers (that they can now design) to keep the enemy from erecting their own HQ tower.
Now some "weapons module" addon that requires some research would be ok, but that does nothing about tower rushes.

IMO the thing about tower rushes.... is you can have towers before you can have any combat units to stop the towers from being put up.
To put up MG towers - a research facility is all you need.
To put out MG vipers - Research Facility, Factory, HQ. And then it can't even challenge an MG tower

If we make the MG weapon (that takes like 2 seconds to research and costs like 5 power) research completed by default, and enable the MG viper as a template like the truck that doesn't require an HQ to manufacture, then one could just build a factory right away, and have MG vipers ready to take out any trucks building towers in a truck rush.

Or we could just play starting with bases... or advanced bases....
Truck Rushes are only really a problem on No-Base maps
All the other settings... You can pump out some combat units and destroy the enemy trucks trying to secure the middle ground or rush you.
They may get up a defensive structure or three at the strategic middle before doing so (as they could head there right away while your combat units build), but so should you... and the one that throws combat units in the mix to kill the enemy trucks, will win.

Almost as bad as tower/truck rushes, are tower/truck wars for the center. and its basically the same thing, but tower wars for the center just take longer to kill you - they get their towers up within 2 min, and you have lost - You lost the oil, you loose your base, either way, the MG towers decided the outcome.

I would really like to see it such that you need to control an area with combat units first, before you can put up defensive structures.
If one wants to contest a "claim" for an area - it should be done with combat units fighting, not building wars and dummy structures to draw fire (such as a half build HQ or even the really lame half build oil derrick).

On the last map I made (which I should really go show in the showcase forum) - I gave each player 4 starting vipers and 2 trucks - they only show up on bases/advanced bases (no bases is just 2 trucks).
Which should be enough to go kill 2 trucks before they get a defensive structure up, even if they are taking fire from 4 other vipers.
The map is big enough such that 4 starting vipers are useless for rushing- and especially so on the advanced bases setting (each entrance has 2 towers, 2 hardpoints, and 2 bunkers defending it

I really like the idea of starting MG Wheeled Vipers - like in the Alpha 1 campaign game.
The enemy starting vipers would be enough of a threat that you would make sure to set up a factory asap, rather than go truck rushing the enemy or the resources.

I also like Mayhem mode with scavengers in it as an anti Truck rush setting - especially when it isn't just one scavenger base in the middle, but scattered bunkers defending the oil roughly equidistance between players.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Tsade » 10 May 2009, 22:27

If MG Viper Wheels were baseline and the Wheels had their speed decreased, it would make both rushes harder. But I admit that only doing the former would lead to MG Viper rushing, instead of Tower.

About the towers attacking the HQ, defense structure AI is pretty bad overall, the player should be given control of the towers. Being able to select the attack target would require the player to be able to select them all at once, otherwise it'd just be tedious microing.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Zarel » 12 May 2009, 01:56

Plizump wrote:How about leave the game alone and f***** get better ^^ snd fine nuff said gg
Wrong forum. Lounge is where you yell at people complaining about the game. This is General Development; we actually try to change the game here. ;)
3drts wrote:Guns on the HQ is a terrible idea....
I was playing acid on Highground - He used his half build HQ as a dummy to draw fire from my MG towers.
The fact that it is a "hard" structure would make it a tower killer - people would start HQ rushes. get an HQ up as a super MG tower(with no pre-reqs), follow with the MG vipers (that they can now design) to keep the enemy from erecting their own HQ tower.
Now some "weapons module" addon that requires some research would be ok, but that does nothing about tower rushes.
Exactly. This is the main reason I don't want to give HQ functionality that only affects a specific location - it'll lead to people setting up HQs in tactical locations, instead of protected at the back of the base where it should be.
3drts wrote:IMO the thing about tower rushes.... is you can have towers before you can have any combat units to stop the towers from being put up.
To put up MG towers - a research facility is all you need.
To put out MG vipers - Research Facility, Factory, HQ. And then it can't even challenge an MG tower
Working on fixing this. The HQ at least should be necessary for both, at the very least.
3drts wrote:If we make the MG weapon (that takes like 2 seconds to research and costs like 5 power) research completed by default, and enable the MG viper as a template like the truck that doesn't require an HQ to manufacture, then one could just build a factory right away, and have MG vipers ready to take out any trucks building towers in a truck rush.
Wrong solution. I've mentioned this before: "Plus, I kind of like the idea of any offense requiring Research Facility. I think MG Tower should get a slight advantage - enough that you can build it at your base before the MG rush comes, but not so much that you can tower at an opponent's base before they come up with MGs."
3drts wrote:Or we could just play starting with bases... or advanced bases....
Truck Rushes are only really a problem on No-Base maps
All the other settings... You can pump out some combat units and destroy the enemy trucks trying to secure the middle ground or rush you.
They may get up a defensive structure or three at the strategic middle before doing so (as they could head there right away while your combat units build), but so should you... and the one that throws combat units in the mix to kill the enemy trucks, will win.
Truck rushes are a problem in any setting. In Bases, people just spam MG bunkers. Of course, flamers are very good at dealing with that strategy. ;)
3drts wrote:Almost as bad as tower/truck rushes, are tower/truck wars for the center. and its basically the same thing, but tower wars for the center just take longer to kill you - they get their towers up within 2 min, and you have lost - You lost the oil, you loose your base, either way, the MG towers decided the outcome.

I would really like to see it such that you need to control an area with combat units first, before you can put up defensive structures.
If one wants to contest a "claim" for an area - it should be done with combat units fighting, not building wars and dummy structures to draw fire (such as a half build HQ or even the really lame half build oil derrick).
Agreed. I hate them. What usually happens it, it keeps on feeling like I'm at a disadvantage, and then suddenly I realize I control most of the map, and anyone going near my towers gets destroyed really quickly. It's a really unsatisfying way of winning.
3drts wrote:On the last map I made (which I should really go show in the showcase forum) - I gave each player 4 starting vipers and 2 trucks - they only show up on bases/advanced bases (no bases is just 2 trucks).
Which should be enough to go kill 2 trucks before they get a defensive structure up, even if they are taking fire from 4 other vipers.
The map is big enough such that 4 starting vipers are useless for rushing- and especially so on the advanced bases setting (each entrance has 2 towers, 2 hardpoints, and 2 bunkers defending it

I really like the idea of starting MG Wheeled Vipers - like in the Alpha 1 campaign game.
The enemy starting vipers would be enough of a threat that you would make sure to set up a factory asap, rather than go truck rushing the enemy or the resources.
No. This is a huge balance problem. What if they rush their MG Viper Wheels at you? Then it's just 4 against 4. Whoever's the better microer wins - you just don't have enough time to put up a factory before you get destroyed.
3drts wrote:I also like Mayhem mode with scavengers in it as an anti Truck rush setting - especially when it isn't just one scavenger base in the middle, but scattered bunkers defending the oil roughly equidistance between players.
Now this is a good strategy - I use it whenever possible for Startup.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by 3drts » 12 May 2009, 03:29

Zarel wrote:Truck rushes are a problem in any setting. In Bases, people just spam MG bunkers. Of course, flamers are very good at dealing with that strategy.
Re: flamers- exactly- you already start with a factory and an HQ, and some research done- you don't need to wait for engineering to finish, and then fuel injection to get flamers- you can put out mg vipers right away - if anyone can truck rush you on bases/advanced bases, you deserve to loose.
You can put out combat units at the same time as you can put up towers when using bases.
Zarel wrote:No. This is a huge balance problem. What if they rush their MG Viper Wheels at you? Then it's just 4 against 4. Whoever's the better microer wins - you just don't have enough time to put up a factory before you get destroyed.
That all depends on Map Size doesn't it? - and its a moot point on Bases/Advanced bases.
Of course on a large map, truck rushes typically won't work, so the vipers are not needed to stop truck rushes.
But they do contribute to stopping truck build wars I think.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Zarel » 12 May 2009, 03:49

3drts wrote:That all depends on Map Size doesn't it? - and its a moot point on Bases/Advanced bases.
Of course on a large map, truck rushes typically won't work, so the vipers are not needed to stop truck rushes.
But they do contribute to stopping truck build wars I think.
It would be a huge problem on any map where truck rushing is currently a problem. It would be a huge problem in No Bases, which is the only situation in which truck rushing is currently a problem.

They "contribute" to stopping truck build wars, yes, but they're a huge minus for reasons stated earlier.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Desolator4u » 14 May 2009, 12:32

We need a proper solution for this bs tactic (if it's even worthy of being called a tactic) After years upon years of not playing WZ, i get back in game recently and i had to deal wit this crap like 3 times, and I think Plizump was one of the guys who did this to me!!
But also, by the time i'm even through the prerequisites and produce some MG Viper tanks to counter it, the MG towers are already up, and my tanks can't face it (as already pointed out by someone)

I say make the towers require Power Gen., Research Facility and HQ to be built first. Force players to actually get their bases up before even thinking of rushing their little trucks at the enemy. I bet some gonna argue that they want to be able to build the MG towers near their oil resources as soon as possible tho (Plizump for example lol)

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Freakyman » 27 May 2009, 10:12

or how about your HQ gets a new weapon called an emp of a radius of 1024 to disable all trucks in the area of the base and oh btw i was only joking.

this is the major reason i no longer play warzone cause as soon as the source came out there have been so many bs tactics that a real good game is rare and hard to play cause you had adjust yourself to preparing your basing against bs tactics.

well any way good luck mods to findind out a good work out againts these little bstrds

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by lav_coyote25 » 27 May 2009, 17:54

hmmmm... seems this keeps comming up.


http://docs.wz2100.net/strategy%20and%2 ... ocate.html



just a little light reading... i know its a large amount of reading but it is worth it. :3 xD

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Deathguise » 28 May 2009, 00:33

Tsade wrote: Reduced defenses/hp:
- The MG Guard Tower can destroy several tanks before it is destroyed, it may be (one of) the weakest defense structures, but early on it is superior to all offenses.
Despite its name the MG Guard Tower is actually armed with a Heavy Machinegun same thing for the MG bunker, making it very effective against light body wheeled vehicles.

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Re: Machinegun Guard Tower Rush

Post by Zarel » 28 May 2009, 20:51

mod_desolator wrote:We need a proper solution for this bs tactic (if it's even worthy of being called a tactic) After years upon years of not playing WZ, i get back in game recently and i had to deal wit this crap like 3 times, and I think Plizump was one of the guys who did this to me!!
But also, by the time i'm even through the prerequisites and produce some MG Viper tanks to counter it, the MG towers are already up, and my tanks can't face it (as already pointed out by someone)

I say make the towers require Power Gen., Research Facility and HQ to be built first. Force players to actually get their bases up before even thinking of rushing their little trucks at the enemy. I bet some gonna argue that they want to be able to build the MG towers near their oil resources as soon as possible tho (Plizump for example lol)
Well, it already needs research facility. I've been considering requiring HQ before any defensive structure can be built at all. A power generator requirement would be kind of silly, though.
lav_coyote25 wrote:hmmmm... seems this keeps comming up.

http://docs.wz2100.net/strategy%20and%2 ... ocate.html

just a little light reading... i know its a large amount of reading but it is worth it. :3 xD
I've read that twice before, but I don't see its relevance here. Most of it's just a debate on which of PL and HC was better, wasn't it?
Deathguise wrote:Despite its name the MG Guard Tower is actually armed with a Heavy Machinegun same thing for the MG bunker, making it very effective against light body wheeled vehicles.
MG Guard Tower has an HMG, yes, but an MG bunker is a completely normal MG (with the exception that it can't hit air units).

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