Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Discuss the future of Warzone 2100 with us.

Say you have two tracked tanks, one at 125 speed and one at 100 speed. Higher experience should...

...make both go faster.
25
83%
...only make the slower one go faster. (Current behavior)
5
17%
 
Total votes: 30

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Zarel
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Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by Zarel » 30 Apr 2009, 01:34

Hey, guys.

Currently, units with more experience are supposed to have higher speed. Of course, this speed is applied before the speed cap, so any unit already going at a propulsion's max speed (125, 150, 175, 300, 700, for Tracks through VTOL), which is going to be most units, isn' t going to benefit from it. So instead, I propose for the experience bonus to be applied after the max speed cap.

Thoughts?

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lav_coyote25
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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by lav_coyote25 » 30 Apr 2009, 06:35

the more experience you have in real life - the better your reflexes and cognition. go faster would be just one of many attributes that would benefit. :3 :)

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by Asterisk » 30 Apr 2009, 11:09

Sooo... are you saying that this will make the speed of the vechiles go over the limit?

I also suggest giving them more dammage/hitpoints/range... Benefits of having way more experienced units
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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by EvilGuru » 30 Apr 2009, 13:59

Asterisk wrote:Sooo... are you saying that this will make the speed of the vechiles go over the limit?

I also suggest giving them more dammage/hitpoints/range... Benefits of having way more experienced units
It has been the best part of a year since I have worked on the code, but if I recall:

Experience makes units harder to hit (6% less accuracy for attackers per experience level); take less damage (5% less per experience level) and a minor speed boost. The values may not be exact, however.

Regards, Freddie.

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by Zarel » 30 Apr 2009, 16:43

It has been about four days since I read through that part of the code. You forgot that it increases unit accuracy for your own units.

http://guide.wz2100.net/experience

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by TVR » 02 May 2009, 08:06

Correlating maximum velocity with number of kills is an arbitrary and unrealistic; it will not affect single-player campaign, only in which non-superficial amounts of experienced can be accumulated.

Warzone's MP is incomparable to the campaign:

No timelimit
->Turtling is an effective strategy, in conjunction with the resource and research system

No requirement to acquire artifacts
->No conflicts for specific research paths

No limited unit RTT segments
->Current experience benefits are noticeable in away missions, while no reasonable amount of buffs will ever make individual units noteworthy in MP

Unit turnover rate is significantly greater than campaign
->The unit will be destroyed before an appreciable number of kills are achieved

Different balancing
->Current GPMs is based on symmetrical warfare, whereas the campaign is either advancing through inferior opposition within a timelimit or outmanoeuvring an opposition possessing superior tech.

If such were to be implemented, it would only decrease the importance of high power/mass designs, perhaps if instead experienced unit AI were to prioritize targets better, or perform complicated manoeuvres such as power-sliding around corners for wheeled vehicles, or Immelmann turn for VTOLs

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by elio » 02 May 2009, 09:29

TVR wrote: Unit turnover rate is significantly greater than campaign
->The unit will be destroyed before an appreciable number of kills are achieved
for this you should try the 'retreat at medium damage' feature, and in conjunction with a commander, it will return to the commander after repair

regards
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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by Zarel » 02 May 2009, 09:59

TVR wrote:Correlating maximum velocity with number of kills is an arbitrary and unrealistic; it will not affect single-player campaign, only in which non-superficial amounts of experienced can be accumulated.
Why? It makes some amount of sense that higher experience means better at maneuvering, which can be abstracted away as speed.

First of all, that's not what this thread is about. There is already an experience modifier to speed. This thread is about making the experience modifier to speed more consistent.

Second, why won't it affect singleplayer campaign? Do you mean that it will only affect singleplayer campaign? If so, that's really what it's meant to. It's more of a minor bonus in multiplayer.
TVR wrote:Warzone's MP is incomparable to the campaign
Yes, yes, we know. That's hardly some big secret.
TVR wrote:If such were to be implemented, it would only decrease the importance of high power/mass designs, perhaps if instead experienced unit AI were to prioritize targets better, or perform complicated manoeuvres such as power-sliding around corners for wheeled vehicles, or Immelmann turn for VTOLs
Hmm, we can't do that, but we can give more experienced units faster rotation speed, and thus better maneuverability. That could work.

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by EvilGuru » 02 May 2009, 12:40

Changes such as this effect both single and multi-player games. Amazingly they use the same unit/projectile/structure code as each other.

The base statistics, however, are different between the two. (So MP balance changes do not effect SP.)

Regards, Freddie.

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by TVR » 02 May 2009, 15:58

Zarel wrote:... higher experience ... can be abstracted away as speed. ...
Linear max velocity, not manoeuvrability -> High-speed droids can still be stuck when moving in opposite directions
Zarel wrote:... This thread is about making the experience modifier to speed more consistent. ...
This thread is for softening the hard cap on propulsion max speed, which lessens the significance of proper designs.
Zarel wrote:... why won't it affect singleplayer campaign? ...
I believed the WRP wouldn't change any gameplay aspects of singleplayer campaign, that was inaccurate.
elio wrote:... for this you should try the 'retreat at medium damage' feature, and in conjunction with a commander, it will return to the commander after repair ...
Effective multiplayer strategies are distinct from effective singleplayer strategies; recycling units in order to transfer experience does not work well, either that unit will spend it's entirety in the base being constantly recycled, or experienced units used for combat will be stuck somewhere while retreating [Murphy's Law], and be picked off by new enemy tech on fresh units.

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by whippersnapper » 02 May 2009, 21:18

.
For me the following strikes to the heart of what is at stake here... admittedly a wee bit outside the present box.

In a ballistic system where hit/miss is completely eliminated, and a bullet simply "goes where it goes and hits what it hits" (non-homeing or not what is known as a PGM - Precision Guided Munition) then unit speed and manueverability would play a large part in combat as it does in real life. An inexperienced crew might just remain stationary, or move very slowly just so that they could get a steady shot off, while an experienced crew would be in constant motion, swerving left and right so they'd be harder to aim at, thus increasing their survivability signifigantly.

Tank warfare has never been about getting 20 tanks in a group and sitting there taking potshots - realistically 5 tanks that were moving around constantly while the opposing 20 were stationary would almost always win the fight (an example of .symmetric force.vs asymmetric force).

This brings us back to smart maneuver (like "Fire & Fade") vs simple linear advance AND .......... symmetric force.vs asymmetric force.

Here is a simply example of how experience should work without constant baby-sitting of individual units within a combat group. Your
fastest units with LOS weaps should be ranging in lateral motion at your front line, not stationary. Weaker units (health-wise) should fall behind stronger units,while still firing upon the enemy. Concentrating all your fire power on one enemy unit, ignoring the rest of the enemy's combat group is, well, not very smart for a Commander to do. Repair units should remain in the rear-guard, units needing repairs going to them and not the repair units going to the front line of enemy fire to become helpless sitting ducks. Etc...etc...

In essence a faster linear advance boon, by itself, makes no real difference during an engagement. Boon modifiers would work best,
make a real difference in higher level experienced combat, if directly linked to Unit (and Commander) A.I. advances as described. (I have
hopes that with Betawidget - LUA such will become practical.)

My 2 cents, whipper :)
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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by EvilGuru » 02 May 2009, 22:26

TVR wrote:I believed the WRP wouldn't change any gameplay aspects of singleplayer campaign, that was inaccurate.
If we didn't change any of the gameplay aspects of campaign then we would be extremely limited with regards to what we could do. No smarter unit targeting, no realistic projectiles, no experience changes.

We do, however, try and keep the experience the same. So levels should not become excessively hard/easy as a result of the changes we make.

If you want nostalgia play 1.10.

Regards, Freddie.

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by adrian101a » 05 May 2009, 10:45

is it my imagination but do Commanders work better when speed limiting is off
ive been comparing the 2, speed limiting on and off
and it seems when its on units ignore the commander
when its off the game seems to work better

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by zoid » 13 Jun 2009, 02:21

I personally think the whole speed limit concept is unrealistic and counterproductive. For example, I design an Inferno Python Hover. Not a bad unit. Just one problem. I have a bunch of useless bodies. An Inferno Mantis Hover goes 200 speed just like the Python, even though the Mantis is lighter and has the same engine output. In real life, a light car and a heavy car with the same engine don't go the same speed. Speed is not limited by propulsion!! Removing the speed limit will not only make the game more realistic, but give uses to the NP bodies and some other underused bodies. (Plus it gets rid of arguments about how to apply experience speed bonuses.) :)

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Re: Experience speed modifier after max speed limit?

Post by Deathguise » 13 Jun 2009, 13:06

zoid wrote:I personally think the whole speed limit concept is unrealistic and counterproductive. For example, I design an Inferno Python Hover. Not a bad unit. Just one problem. I have a bunch of useless bodies. An Inferno Mantis Hover goes 200 speed just like the Python, even though the Mantis is lighter and has the same engine output. In real life, a light car and a heavy car with the same engine don't go the same speed. Speed is not limited by propulsion!! Removing the speed limit will not only make the game more realistic, but give uses to the NP bodies and some other underused bodies. (Plus it gets rid of arguments about how to apply experience speed bonuses.) :)
The propulsion speed limit could easily be removed with a mod.

I voted for the experience bonus to be applied after the max speed cap, purely bacuse it is more consistent, however i am not sure i agree with the +5% speed boost per experience level combined with being applied after the max speed cap.

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