Massive addition idea: Naval Units

[Molotov]

I got the idea recently while I was playing Advance Wars on my DS:
What if we could put navies into WZ?

Think about it. Right now, we're working out the bugs on a multi-turret land chassis. What if we took this to the extremes, and rather than two turrets, put FOUR separate, massive cannons on a battleship hull?

Remember how the transport is SOMEHOW capable of transporting VTOLs?
Aircraft. Carrier.
flight deck for launching and rearming, elevator to interior repair bay.
Again, we see the multiple-turret feature, but to a weaker effect, using slightly weaker-than-normal AA machineguns to defend itself.

But let's not forget the utility ships.
A builder, for building naval variants of the land buildings, (with the exception of the naval factory aka shipyard which would be buildable by trucks) like naval repair towers, oil platforms (which would actually provide more power than derricks, because of the effort needed to reach them)
Sensor ships are a distinct possibility also.

I'm particularly excited by the idea of submarines. Wouldn't you be?

So, what do you think? I realise that such a feature would require a major reworking of the game engine, so it's a given that a feature like this would be way in the future. what I want to discuss is everyone's opinion on wether naval units would make a worthwhile addition the the world of warzone, and, stepping back, would naval combat even fit into the flavor of warzone in the first place? I think it's a distinct possibility.

[Per]

Actually it shouldn't be all that hard to add. I remember Watermelon working on it at one time, so you could try asking him about it.

[Rman Virgil]

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* Idea first came up in 1999 and every year since on numerous occassions. .

* It's never gonna happen.

* We got into great depth with Watermelon over the specific reasons why it will never be.

* It is his expertise, so I'll let him speak to it rather than quote the discussion.

* It really comes down to a very simple obstacle that you'd have to rebuild parts of WZ from the ground-up which under prevailing circumstance is so far- fetched as to have zero viability.

* But I can tell what is viable and while not "true naval" in conventional sense - it is as close as WZ will ever get.

* Re-design super heavy body Hovers like the Wyvern & Dragon to accomodate 2 to 3 Turrets with efficacy and polish.

- RV

[psychopompos]

you would first need to change the building code to allow a building to be put on the water tiles
then put another factory class in the the game
then create a prop type that can only move on water.

and that, wouldn't be as easy as it sounds.
as much as big naval arty exchanges are cool, in wz where would you get a use for the naval prop that isnt covered by the hover units?

i would suggest at this point you get total annihilation with taucp expansion for epic naval combat.
there was an expansion mod for ta dedicated to massive ships, but it was dead last time i tried to get it.

[Deus Siddis]

i would suggest at this point you get total annihilation with taucp expansion for epic naval combat.
there was an expansion mod for ta dedicated to massive ships, but it was dead last time i tried to get it.

Just to be clear, you are talking about Spring right?

http://spring.clan-sy.com/

[Rman Virgil]

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* psychopompos.... those are NOT the issues at all.

* THESE are the issues:

* Units cannot be larger than 1x1

* Each tile stores a list of object pointers and unit stores a pointer to 1 tile

* The hit indicator is 1x1

* I'll let you further deduce the consequences in context and in the round.

- RV

[psychopompos]

Just to be clear, you are talking about Spring right?

http://spring.clan-sy.com/

will TAUCP work with spring?
not to mention the in game widgets & set up confused me ¬_¬
then when i figured out basic control, there was no enemy force on th map...
i liked the effect for the metal deposits though, that was cool.

-------------------->

* psychopompos.... those are NOT the issues at all.

* THESE are the issues:

* Units cannot be larger than 1x1

* Each tile stores a list of object pointers and unit stores a pointer to 1 tile

* The hit indicator is 1x1

* I'll let you further deduce the consequences in context and in the round.

- RV

naval units needn't be bigger than the dragon body anyway.
things resembling pibbers, river patrol & torpedo boats could be designed to fit around the current bodies.
i would likely take my hours to design each pie though.
and the stuff i listed would stop me before i got to what you have listed

[Molotov]

While I do so much enjoy discussing the mechanics of adding naval units to the game, I made this thread ALREADY aware that such an addition would require a substantial re-working of the engine. The purpose was to discuss not whether navies are doable, but whether navies are a good idea. It's already known that hovers can go over water, but what if you limited anything on a Hover to 2 weapons maximum? After that, you'd have to turn to your battleships to get your 5-turret juggernauts. But the most important question is: Would naval conflict even fit into the very atmosphere already established in WZ2100?

I believe the easiest way to rig a naval unit would to simply remodel the hover base into a ship's lower hull (once the 1x1 size limit is fixed) and make it only able to travel in water. Next, create a whole set of new chassis for the upper half of the hull. Finally, you'd need a whole new branch on the tech tree for dedicated naval weapons.

Let's forget all of the technical hurdles for now. We really don't even need to worry about them unless it's actually decided that were actually GOING to put navies in. For now, I'd like to discuss the idea itself, rather than what's in the way.

[Rman Virgil]

--------------------------------->

* Ok then.

* I like navies. Have had monumental naval battles in TA which I thoroughly enjoyed. And
other games that specialize in conventional Naval like the classic "Harpoon" series.

* It is very important to understand that in the our current era there is more than ONE notion of what
a Navy should be. Indeed the US Navy is undergoing a transformation from the World War 2 mind-set
of a Navy to what is called a Littoral Navy...

* For me WW 2 Naval would never fit WZ. For me the Littoral Navy would fit WZ perfectly and a
quasi-Littoral is possible right NOW that I think would be loads of fun.

- RV

[Rman Virgil]

------------------------------------->

* These are both Littoral Naval Ships.

* One config is possible in WZ (w/ 2-3 Weap Turrets) and the other
not quite because of the fundamental limits detailed earlier.

* The only body type in WZ that would work is the "Dragon".

* Even though compared to other GFX goals this would be modest and viable it still would
require a fair amount of work (inc new textures) and thus is unlikely to be brought to
full term based on past experience here with much simpler propositions..

[Buginator]

-------------------->

* psychopompos.... those are NOT the issues at all.

* THESE are the issues:

* Units cannot be larger than 1x1

* Each tile stores a list of object pointers and unit stores a pointer to 1 tile

* The hit indicator is 1x1

* I'll let you further deduce the consequences in context and in the round.

- RV

Strike 1.
Strike 2.
Ball 1.
Strike 3.
...
Your out!

[Per]

* Units cannot be larger than 1x1

* Each tile stores a list of object pointers and unit stores a pointer to 1 tile

* The hit indicator is 1x1

Actually the two first points are incorrect, and the latter is comparatively easy to fix. Tiles in the original version do not save pointers to objects, and even in our version they only save a pointer to the structure on top of the tile. Each tile can have multiple or even several fractions of droids on them, since droids are on a higher resolution grid than tiles and have their own size. I played around with giant, scaled up units in Warzone a year ago, and it worked fine. I had trucks the size of mountains driving across the map. Unfortunately, I did not retain any screenshots of it (but maybe someone else did? I did post them on IRC at least).

[EvilGuru]

It is also interesting to note (and am surprised that no one else has) that the transporter droid is significantly bigger than 1x1. It works fine.

Regards, Freddie.

[Rman Virgil]

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* Oh chit, ya got me in the cross-hairs !

* Nah... not even close.

* Well the Transporter was first noted as a possible example TEN YEARS ago - doesn't work that way. You don't think that all the moders that made terrific stuff years before you showed-up and are using NOW in your release would have done it long ago if it was that simple.

* WZ is a system dynamic construct not some linear accretion like counting the natural numbers. You should know better but I guess if all you have to offer is false hope then you say what you can to that end.

* Moreover, I guess your hypothetical naval is correct vs. the pragmatics of someone who indeed worked very hard to make WZ Naval last year - go figure how that works. Put your money where your mouth is (which is how I roll) and lets see you make it work without an extensive and fundamental source re-write. Otherwise what you have to say is just so much wonky wind, create nothing, bull-chit .

* And if you don't like the tone or substance of what I just said then you can try to eradicate reality by censoring this post (and then claim it is still exant) a la an ostrich sticking its head in a hole at the approach of danger thinking it's all good now.

- RV

[Per]

Huh. I do not see why you feel the need to resort with that kind of tone. It is simply a technical question, I am not doubting your ... whatever.

As to the big transporter, it is rather special, since it always operates alone in the air, and does not require more complicated collision detection. When it lands, it simply hides droids underneath it.