About lobby

[wz2102]

Hi all,
I've almost finished my lobby server(Current lobby server features included) and I think that we can improve the player
communication through some updates, since IRC alone isn't the right thing. Important features to add, are a player online list
and a seperate console for the lobby which can also track the irc user and chat list if requested.

First I need to ensure if an new lobby would be acceptable. IMO it's an decisive factor for an increase of players, since most don't
know about IRC or just don't want to join. It's written in c++ with boost, so we could add an ranking and a lot of things.
As example, the host could set an minimum and maximum rank, so new players don't get simply kicked who afterwards quit the game for ever.
For this we can also add an mysql connection to the forum database where the accounts are saved, so if a playername is registered we simply
send a password request.
Those are just some examples. I'm wondering why no one continued on connecting the community in a better way.
I know an old game, like warzone, whose biggest community developers have created an wonderfull lobby server inclusive an program to connect to it.
It allows to see online users and text messages and you can even host games with it, although the developers haven't any source code of the main game.
That's what we need.

[Terminator]

you may try this. viewtopic.php?f=49&t=11578 - but it buggy and in alpha state.

[wz2102]

The aim of a lobby is to connect the players. What you posted heads the right way, still, new players, or players who don't know(What are the majority) this
won't use it. I want that all players can communicate in one lobby. Best is still to make an inbuilt lobby since we easily can introduce such one through a new patch.
I've recently updated my code and added a player list: http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img909/6059/WR0gZ8.png

Now there needs to be the same selection function like in the map selection ui.
Sure it would be better if we could add an slider, but that's vexed's job, since I wasn't as busy as him with the gui. (Is this even possible with the current gui code?)

Subsequent changes are the change of the placement of each form.
Left side: game list
Middle: chat console
Right side: player list

Then it needs to be customized for lower resolutions.

[Terminator]

Adding chat its not a big deal. If you made a players list. Make a patch for this changes, and submit it, here at devs section. http://developer.wz2100.net/report/1 - mabe somebody make a chat patch. Infact it already done but the guy that did that developing his own warzone version. ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11616 )

[vexed]

Hi all,
I've almost finished my lobby server(Current lobby server features included) and I think that we can improve the player
communication through some updates, since IRC alone isn't the right thing. Important features to add, are a player online list
and a seperate console for the lobby which can also track the irc user and chat list if requested.
First I need to ensure if an new lobby would be acceptable. IMO it's an decisive factor for an increase of players, since most don't
know about IRC or just don't want to join. It's written in c++ with boost, so we could add an ranking and a lot of things.
As example, the host could set an minimum and maximum rank, so new players don't get simply kicked who afterwards quit the game for ever.
For this we can also add an mysql connection to the forum database where the accounts are saved, so if a playername is registered we simply
send a password request.
Those are just some examples. I'm wondering why no one continued on connecting the community in a better way.
I know an old game, like warzone, whose biggest community developers have created an wonderfull lobby server inclusive an program to connect to it.
It allows to see online users and text messages and you can even host games with it, although the developers haven't any source code of the main game.
That's what we need.

As I understand it, you want the server to host a IRC type client (written in c++ & boost?), then redo WZ's internals to support said server? Do you have a repo for this someplace?

The premise of a new lobby server is good. In fact, there is a new one currently being implemented (in python).
However, it seems you are thinking of a integrated client, which wouldn't be that bad, except for the fact that we just don't have a decent GUI to handle everything that needs to be handled.

I broached this subject before, and, what would be ideal would be to have a Qt based client which would be a front-end to Warzone, but, that also has issues as well.
Trying to shoehorn a useable interface into WZ is difficult to say the least, with the current code.

Right now, rank and everything else associated with that is pretty much worthless. (In fact, we just might disable that stuff.)
We just don't have the ability to monitor games that closely via a trusted way.
By that, I mean, there is no way to certify the results, unless the game was being played on the server, and the current code just don't support that.
We are toying with the idea of having registered players, but, because of various reasons I won't get into at this stage, I don't think it would help much, unless all this stuff is server side.

We also have a ton of miscreants that are constantly abusing WZ, making things rather unpleasant for the MP community, and that is the biggest grind there is.

[wz2102]

Right..

I've actually noticed some Aspects which restricts the possibilities to make an decent lobby myself.
(QT would be a dream, but it's kinda hard to implement an good gui in that old game as you often said. In this case you could rewrite the gui from scratch and get better results)

I've also added an lobby chat now and the interface shouldn't be too bad for official usage:



Normally you'd put the games on the right side and make some space for the chat form in the middle, but that didn't work out because of
the gui code.

The ranksystem is still pretty usefull considering the recognition of new and old players. Some people might still abuse it, but
we can at least add an ip check since all games and their players are tracked in the core.
(I guess progressive players would simply love an working system.)

Regarding the source, I'll upload it today/tomorrow. Shouldn't forget that it's everything else than stable atm and that I'm currently using
an clientside network class which is also writen with the same libs, so if there are the old functions requested in the client, I'll redo the client stuff with those.

After all features are done, I'll fix obvious bugs and performance leaks, too.

Source: https://github.com/HQX755/WZ2100Lobby/
Will be update later.

[Tzeentch]

This will work well but one thing, please make the tabs on player lists larger to press if poss. Player list with rankings is important, and of course total player count at the top of this page. Be useful to have new things added for ranking like winning medals under certain conditions and viewing rank stats which must be saved somewhere and can be represented to players with just some player info button... then I can tell who is crap and who's got 90% win ratio...

"For this we can also add an mysql connection to the forum database where the accounts are saved, so if a playername is registered we simply
send a password request." - what's the status of the DB if this can be shared? As in stability and performance given this'll be hit more often doing this.

agree to all of these things, I like having a filter on games for rank too!

[wz2102]

I can add this. MySQL shouldn't be a problem if I know the structure of the forum db.
Anyway I'm making a client patch and fixxing some stuff currently so you can try it on you own after it is finished.
For the client I'm using now the standard netplay lib functions. You will be able to switch between old and new style by adding/removing an define.
Clientside source patch will be uploaded soon..

[Tzeentch]

Fantastic, I'm happy to test but I'd probably need basic clear instructions... 1. do this, 2 install that. Just to keep it simple so no confusion (As I can fairly easily).

Incorporating all those will definitely add to the user base, perhaps we can even get a count of active players then compare it after the new lobby is out. Later on we could chat about what medals to add in. I.e. achieving a 3 - 1 Kill Death Ratio, 100 wins, killed 1,000 cyborgs, shared 10,000 oil to allies etc would be my kind of thought.

supplemental, one of the minor things I love first seen in Halo 3 then in COD Black Ops (not much of fan of either) was in the game lobby having a small mini map in a corner which showed you the active players around the world and the rough sun position to know when it was light or dark in those regions. Like bottom left here you could only just make out.



This will be made into such a good lobby when we're done Happy to help out where I can

[vexed]

Let me take this in parts, there seems to be confusion on what WZ is capable of doing right now.

For starters, the main reason we use IRC is, it is easier for someone else (freenode) to handle lots of the miscreants. We try our best to keep miscreants out of the channels via OPs.
Now, if we were to have a in-game IRC type interface, who is going to be monitoring all that is going on, and how much of a load would the server be able to take before getting knocked offline, and what happens after that?
Security is a huge issue here.

What is the purpose of having rank, & keeping track of something (kill/games/whatever) that can't be kept track of in a trust worthy manner?
For example, currently, people can edit the rank to whatever they want.
They can also edit kills, losses and everything else.

That means the rank/ladder page would show what exactly? Who can cheat the most?
How do you plan to fight the massive & widespread cheating that would follow, all in an effort to get listed?

When I said we have "...tons of miscreants that are constantly abusing WZ" I wasn't kidding.

Halo 3 & COD and pretty much all games that have some kind of "official" stats all have games on their server, and they can control & monitor everything, they have their own lobby system, with tons of people monitoring for abuse and miscreants. They have ban hammers that can kill miscreants game accounts, forcing them to buy the game again.

What do we have? How do we stop repeated offenders? Almost all the attacks currently being done are from random IPs, not static. In short, we can't.

The lack of people playing the MP game isn't only about not having a in-game lobby chat (or a rank/ladder system), it is because we have a MP community that is pretty unfriendly to new people.
There are LOTS of games that they kick people only because they are new.
WZ has a pretty high learning curve, and, it seems most people don't really want to learn it by playing skirmish games or the campaign before jumping straight into MP games.

So, even if we were to implement a in-game environment, that allows everyone to communicate without hitting IRC, how is that going to change any part of what has been said above?

Having a quick look at the source, it has basically no comments at all, dunno if that is by design or not.

[wz2102]

I've mentioned that I'm first creating an template to an decent lobby, which will be finished soon.
I already connected 100 descs and I got no problem, sure the server detail needs to be involved, if those aren't the best.
I would upload this faster, but I'm new to the code style and all what has been used in wz's code.

Never said that it's completely stable already, since after all I'm doing it only in my spare time, so no wonder if it takes some time to finish. (Lot's of time
i have to recheck things which I forgot about.)
I know that there are a lot people in warzone who act very strange, especially some russians who are impressed by an odd religion.
Anyways, I'm not seeing how that can be a reason to not develop something for the community.

IRC can be connected to the lobby, also we have a lot of people we or you can trust in, I don't really get your point with players who could
abuse this system, you can add nice guys like effigy as admin who keep an eye open if someone really gets crazy. As next info, I'm not about to operate this system, I want any developer to create a system which has been missing since the start of this project.

The ranksystem is only abused by a small amount of users, but most of them are already playing since a couple of years. Those ranks
should only be for total newbies who join a game and then get kicked or offended if they are not playing in the regular playstyle.
Would it be a problem to highlight "registered" users? We have about 100 active players in our community, people would know about
each other, especially with an clearer system. Sadly no one uses the password function. Why does nobody use it, when we have an IRC
to let other know about the game? Because not everyone who is good in the game joins the IRC.

Personally I have no problems playing with newbies, I'm not even using half of my knowledge against them.
I have never really kicked someone. Only one time, because of massive lag and discomfort of the other players. But I made sure
that this guy understood that it wasn't intended. So sad that I sometimes really want to have a game with good players, but getting a full list
of guys who are 1/10 as good as me. People who have high rank can understand me at least.

Strange people are in all games and if they play fair or not, how would the lobby system affect this. A spam filter is no problem, an IP blocker neither.
Who cares if someone spams in the lobby chat. The auto block would cancel this cancer on it's own. No need for admins in this case. Banned words are possible.
Screenshots of nasty people can be made and their ip range is, as simply as it is, banned by request.

I'm not calling the aspects again, why this can help our community. And that not only in growing.
Isn't that what we are supposed to reach? Or do you think someone spams/dos the server because of the new system and
resets his internet to do it again? Well, I'm ignoring such guys, so I have no reason to count them as an minus.

It's your decision what you want in the game, just let me know if you don't think it fits to the community.. otherwise i'd waste my time for nothing.

[Berg]

I don't understand why you need extra chat in the lobby you already have chat when you join a game before it starts you also have a good variety of methods in game team talk etc.
Just wondering what advantage a lobby with chat will give?
Personally I would not talk in a lobby chat full of Russians they talk funny.

[Tzeentch]

" how much of a load would the server be able to take before getting knocked offline, and what happens after that?" depends on several aspects here, what kind of specs are the servers? Do we have any resilience? Would be good if I was able to have a basic login to view some aspects of how it operates, processes running etc.

security.. also depends on stuff like OS in use if we're talking about the servers security, can see the complications here.

"What is the purpose of having rank, & keeping track of something (kill/games/whatever) that can't be kept track of in a trust worthy manner?
For example, currently, people can edit the rank to whatever they want.
They can also edit kills, losses and everything else." - I was unaware of it being so simple, perhaps I've oversimplified these aspects in my thinking. Based on everything here being said I think we should be asking how we can make cheating harder for others to do? As it seems near impossible to stop outright as you say then all we can do is make it harder. ( same is true for all games and software even high profile like Halo, Cod, BF4 etc..)

The lobby must be changed as it's just too dated and basic, you get limited info and that's off-putting to me or anyone. Has to have a global chatroom in the lobby while you look for games. You only get per game chatrooms which is limiting. Some of us may not even use this but someone else might, given you have this variety of players it will only make the game more appealing.

I just like to see these difficult loser type people as challenges to how well this is designed, sure they can spam tons of bad words but just some 5 min chat ban could even reduce this.

I can't be bothered to use the IRC most of the time because I have to register then login on that to chat, and most of the time I just want to get into the game and find one then play it quickly.

"WZ has a pretty high learning curve, and, it seems most people don't really want to learn it by playing skirmish games or the campaign before jumping straight into MP games." - true, so what do new people want? Could we create more tutorials to engage them first?

This is definitely worth testing and I'm up for trying it. (I could even test the spamming functionalities or whatever)

[vexed]

BTW, what is up with the line feeds in your post?

I've mentioned that I'm first creating an template to an decent lobby, which will be finished soon.
I already connected 100 descs and I got no problem, sure the server detail needs to be involved, if those aren't the best.
I would upload this faster, but I'm new to the code style and all what has been used in wz's code.

You can use Astyle to fix the code style, that is why we did what we did.
Oh, and in case you didn't know, all new stuff is supposed to be for git master branch, not 3.x, as was explained in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11570

Never said that it's completely stable already, since after all I'm doing it only in my spare time, so no wonder if it takes some time to finish. (Lot's of time
i have to recheck things which I forgot about.)
I know that there are a lot people in warzone who act very strange, especially some russians who are impressed by an odd religion.
Anyways, I'm not seeing how that can be a reason to not develop something for the community.

Yeah, we are all doing warzone related stuff on our spare time. I also didn't mean that it shouldn't be developed, I am just saying that with all the other RTS games out there, besides StarCraft 2, I haven't seen any that has any sort of IRC type of lobby or anything like a rank/ladder system that isn't server side.
Like all the C&C series, the Red alert series, and so on, and they have big communities.

IRC can be connected to the lobby, also we have a lot of people we or you can trust in, I don't really get your point with players who could
abuse this system, you can add nice guys like effigy as admin who keep an eye open if someone really gets crazy. As next info, I'm not about to operate this system, I want any developer to create a system which has been missing since the start of this project.

Freenode has many servers and can handle thousands of people/connections and so on.
WZ (itself) can't.
I haven't seen your code for how the WZ side of this is going to be done, the GUI is really lacking, so I am curious how you are doing this.

The ranksystem is only abused by a small amount of users, but most of them are already playing since a couple of years. Those ranks
should only be for total newbies who join a game and then get kicked or offended if they are not playing in the regular playstyle.
Would it be a problem to highlight "registered" users? We have about 100 active players in our community, people would know about
each other, especially with an clearer system. Sadly no one uses the password function. Why does nobody use it, when we have an IRC
to let other know about the game? Because not everyone who is good in the game joins the IRC.

Once this rank system goes live, you don't think they are going to come out of the woodwork to have a higher rank?
Yes, that is the plan, having a registered user base and the game will hilight those who are signed in.
This isn't in the code base at this point though.

So sad that I sometimes really want to have a game with good players, but getting a full list
of guys who are 1/10 as good as me. People who have high rank can understand me at least.

Yeah, I know the reason behind having no n00bs in games these days, but, I am just saying that doesn't bring in more people if their first few times they keep getting kicked, they they get PO'ed, and never try again since the MP community doesn't want to "waste" their time with n00bs on their teams.
I have no idea how to fix this specific issue.

Strange people are in all games and if they play fair or not, how would the lobby system affect this. A spam filter is no problem, an IP blocker neither.
Who cares if someone spams in the lobby chat. The auto block would cancel this cancer on it's own. No need for admins in this case. Banned words are possible.
Screenshots of nasty people can be made and their ip range is, as simply as it is, banned by request.

There are lots of people who spam the IRC channels, and if this makes it in game, I don't see a change in their behaviour. If anything, it would be worse in WZ because of the lack of screen space and poor GUI controls.
I know IP/filters and what have you, can be done, that is what we are doing now.

I'm not calling the aspects again, why this can help our community. And that not only in growing.
Isn't that what we are supposed to reach? Or do you think someone spams/dos the server because of the new system and
resets his internet to do it again? Well, I'm ignoring such guys, so I have no reason to count them as an minus.

Right now, we have people who spam the lobby server with proxies. I don't see that stopping anytime soon either.
As for how this "helps" the community, I guess we just differ on opinions on the degree it would help.

It's your decision what you want in the game, just let me know if you don't think it fits to the community.. otherwise i'd waste my time for nothing.

I don't think anything done to improve warzone would be wasted.
Kinda hard to say without looking at the full code on how all this will tie together, and how this will merge with the lobby system being worked on.
So, at this point, how things get done with the client side code is the big part of seeing how this will all work.

[wz2102]

I know that you want an stable lobby, but I guess discussing about personal opinions isn't the right deal though.
I'm talking about making the lobby more comfortable for the bigger part of the com. (I believe that this is the case), you are talking mainly about the performance, aren't you?
I'm not that far, that we could recognize heavy memory/net leaks and even if, my version is among zero. Still can make the whole thing using less bandwith by
adding the size as header, so that there is no need for big constant array sizes in packets.

If it happens that the lobby gets flooded by so many connections, what I really doubt, than what's with queues? There's at least always one way out..
as long as the game we are talking about isn't called warzone2100.

If there are people who DDoS an open source game, then those are most likely the enemies of such together closures.
Splitting the servers is an possiblity. Might be an bigger expense, but you can calculate the price of an good combination yourself, that's profitable.

I've never seen this site getting owned by any "hacker". What would be the destination of DDoSing some random sites and not even
getting those down. In other scenes you need an good integrated hardware firewall to hold the huge amount of gbps they donate to you.

Maybe I should mention that I got all my knowledge about c++ from reserve engineering, asm and in small parts from tuts, what means
that I don't proof you wrong, for sure, but all in all, this is OS and can be polished by anyone as soon as I make it official.