Kayiaxo wrote:
I know that wz is still unbalanced for the moments, but I don't think making paper-rock-scissor would be a good idea.
There are just to many combinations possible that's its hard to tell which one goes agains't which one.
I think it's better to first balance the actual tree and maybe make a few weapons specific agains't a certain type of unit/structure (ex: bunker buster).
But making all weapons the same type as the bunker buster would make the game to complicated and it would loose part of its appeal.
I don't think wz should be a learning session, but rather a game you can start with and have fun straight away without getting owned badly if you pick a bad choice of units.
The game should be easier on newbies then it is now.
Rman Virgil wrote:
* You have raised some pivotal points.
* ALL successful RPS implementations have this incommon:
they can be gleened intuitively by the player & donot require a "decodeing bible".
* If you needed such to get a handle on WZ GPMs, an endless learning curve instead of being able to jump right in and have fun.... then, as a GPM designer, you will have failed miserably.
* Very good insights Kayiaxo.
- RV
EDIT:
* IMHO, the perfect fit, game-wise, for RPS implementation are "brawlers".
* And one of the masterpieces of this RPS perfect fit (for over a decade) is Sega Studios "Virtua Fighter" series....
I hate to say this but thats total BS you got to have a learning curve in any game hell I spent about 2 weeks or so going thru the tech tree and units in SupCom before I even really played the game, and this was while it was still in beta, then I spent another good week or two comming up with tactics on how to build bases what I needed most and what I could do without, and then it was a matter of testing each race vs the other race, something WZ dont have unless you add the Scavs into the mix. Basicly WZ sucked in some ways because your going against someone thats got the same sh*t as you, and tho it might be easier to pick up you still have a lot of things to learn and there is NO game out there that you can master just by playing it the first time. Sure it might be nice to have that in a perfect world, but this is not a perfect world and 99% of the time when 2 or more forces go to war they are not going to have the same sh*t. I have studyed many of battles over the years, and this just dont happen. As for as RPS goes tho the idea might be good on paper no puns intended, in real life this dont happen. One force might have better Air Support, or another might have a better Navy, and then you always got someone like China that could send a human wave of grunts at you that over run you like a Zerg Rush.
As I stated many of years ago, when I first joined NEWST this game would have been a lot better in MP IF you could play as Scavs, New Paradin and the other off branches of the game. If you look at any RTS game out there now or in the past almost everyone of them have something in common and thats the fact you can play more then one race, the only thing WZ had going for it at the time was the fact it was by far the first true 3D RTS game on the market, and tho you had games like TA & TA:Kingdoms that said they were 3D I never looked at them as 3D like WZ was, and WZ was by far better then C&C at the time. The thing is it was short lived because you had games like Earth:2150 and Homeworld that came out soon after it and both had more support the WZ did, but Earth:2150 EarthC programing code was a nightmare to play with, and you could not add new units or weapons to the game, so the MOD comunity gave up on it for the most part soon after its release.
Another game that came out around this time was Kohan that added Hero units to the game, granted this was done before, but I think they gave this a new twist because not only did you have different races you have your Heros also, and they gave you different bonus to have them in game, BUT the real neat thing about Kohan was the game flim that you got after a game it showed you all the things needed to make your game play better. So you could see how many troops you had at X amount of mins into the game vs your tech or your resources and what you needed to work on, now days almost all RTS games have this.
Maelstrom made by KD Vision Games had one of the best twist I have seen in an RTS game to day they had an alien race called the Hai-Genti thats main goal in the game was to flood the land with water, and I was beta testing this before I got into SupCom thing is Maelstrom was released by Codemasters and sadly they have yet to give any support to any of there RTS games, and in some cases this was worse then the whole Pumpkin Studio vs Eidos. I liked this game but once again you had a game that was not really MOD friendly and do to lack of support and no map editor in english I moved on to other things.
Anyways the key thing comes down to this, you are taking RTS games not FPS where all you have to do is run around and shoot something or knife them or blow them up, in RTS games you have to learn and think about what your doing, to build your army and then go out and fight someone elses army, and if you can go about mastering it in the first few games you play I really dont look at it as an RTS game of any really long term value. With WZ it had you thinking thru out all of its tech levels and you had to learn what units to make at the start of each tech level and know how to use them the best you can, and hope in time you picked the right ones to go up against your enemy. The real problem I see and this is like any other game, in time players will see what units work best and start using them, and unless you have someone working on the game to make changes this will end up being what everyone makes.
Hell I recall when HC Python tracks were the sh*t in WZ then it went to HC Mantis track followed by HC Mantis hovers, and if you wanted to stop them you put up walls of Lancer bunkers, but I was one of the first to start using TAC(Twin Assault Cannons) mixed with Lancers and they would eat up Mantis hovers, so you had stages in the game that gave you a lot of things to learn over time, but in the end without new stuff added or old things taken out the game will get boring and people will move on plan and simple.
4nE
I've created "something that kills people." And in that purpose, I was a success. I've done this because, philosophically, I'm sympathetic to your aim. I can tell you, with no ego, this is my finest sword. If, on your journey, you should encounter God, God will be cut.......Hattori Hanzo
