A new research tree

[Iluvalar]

As I am looking to make a mod with one or 2 more weapons, bodies, structures. I realize how much hard it is. The major brake to progress is the fact that the research tree is totally artisanal. Each research seem arbitraly added anywhere in the tech tree. Of course i could throw a research somewhere but with no garanty for the balance of the game.

What i'm thinking right now is to make one single "technology" research line. A bit like the research upgrade right now, but without the research upgrade. From that pur technology branch will emerge new components (bodies, weapon, propulsion) and structures. When that components will be the first of his serie, it will unlock automaticaly all the possible upgrades for it. those upgrades will never be hindered again by technology branch. Sky will be the limit.

Exemple : I research a bit in "technology", and then appear in my list the "mini-pod rockets"¹. On ce you'll get them, will appear the accuracy, damage and rof upgrade for rockets. You'll never find the "lancer" by researching any of them. Instead you'll have to follow the main "technology" branch to get them. On the other hand, i'll take into account the "normal" rockets uprgrades when I'll finally unlock the lancer. So it will be somewhat useless to research the lancer if you skipped all the rockets upgrades. I hope you get what i mean.

WHY ? Once i'll get previsible and constant rules for the research tree. It will be possible to approximate the power of each components straight from there stats files and position them automaticaly in the tech tree. If the approximation is good, every body will be able to change or create stats for new weapons. But he will not be able to choose when the weapon become avalaible depending on the stats he choosed.

At least it worth giving a try. I think I can obtain a whole new tree by myself without the help of dev. I need you opinions on that, to get ideas before I'll be over with that.

[GiGaBaNE]

I think it would make a very good mod. definatly worth exploring.

[effigy]

Are you talking about a "leveling" system for weapons, like you would add skill points to your character in Baulder's Gate, or some other RPG?

Rockets and Lancers did not always share upgrades like they do now, but I think that was a welcomed change (at least I've only heard compliments).

EDIT: some nice choices to help with a graphical representation of what your mean:

1) http://www.xmind.net/

2) http://freemind.sourceforge.net/wiki/in ... /Main_Page

[Iluvalar]

Ok here is my good result :
http://cid-9506c397de59c968.office.live ... rotoV04.wz
Please take a look to that folder and take the last version of iluProto instead : http://cid-9506c397de59c968.office.live ... rzone?uc=1

You'll have fun with this one guys. You start with scavs and then build up your base until you reach new limits.
I need testers and feedback to get that mod even better. play !

Please undestand that the technical difficulty here is to rebuld the whole tech tree from scratch and do it so not manually but with an automatic, auto-evaluating script that grab, read and rewrite the whole stats files. That mean that i can introduce new stuff directly and just ask to reevaluate the whole tech tree.

As an exemple of this, these 2 lines :

Code: Select all

 		import($pie,$names,$readme,$body,$basedir .'/iluProto/', $basedir .'/ntw/','stats/body.txt','SEBody1','/components/bodies/','ntw');
 		import($pie,$names,$readme,$bodyprop,$basedir .'/iluProto/', $basedir .'/ntw/','stats/bodypropulsionimd.txt','SEBody1','/components/bodies/','ntw');

Grabs the body called "fish" from the ntw mod and introduce it in the loaded stats befors they get reevaluated. As a result, you'll find the blue bodies (fish) and the brown bodies (chimps) appearing in this mod.

[Iluvalar]

iluProtoV06 is out !!
This start to look like a stable and enjoyable version. I still need your feedbacks !

Bug fixed :
-The AI is now fonctional (and i think quite hard) It knows 3 different build : MG+cannon, Rocket+flamer and MG + Gauss. Please if you find new good designs. Contact me so i can teach them to the AI,

-There was a serious bug in the ROF upgrades. Now fixed.

[Iluvalar]

The version which should have been named iluProtoV07 is now called CTTV01. to reflect the advancement of the mod which will know less modification now.

It stand for "Cooler tech tree".

Fixed :
babapprop shows correctly.
Most weapons upgrade also look good now.

Tweaked :
The is 9 armor upgrade vs 8 weapon upgrade (was 10:7 in last version)
little change in functionnal stucture evaluation to make all t1 structure appear near the same tech levl
Collective (grey) wall have been modified to be different from standard hardcrete. Basically it's just better.

New:
T2 and T3 should be playable T2 being close to normal T1.

[Iluvalar]

CTTV02 is out !

Changes :
Now you'll be asked to research and build one of the four HQs on the game. Each of which will give you access to "national bodies" splitted randomly between the four factions.

The weapons upgrades are now hidden behind the first weapon in the set again.
The other weapons have ROF as a second prerequisite.

These changse reduce the bodies by 3/4 and the weapons and upgrades to what you intend to use in your research lab pages. That was asked by most of my testers becauses their was too much choice in the rlab and we were loosing too much time to find a particular weapon or propulsion.

Tweaked :
Most of the upgrades still gives each 30% of your _actual_ power (130%, 169%, 220%, ...) but the price of each follow his own path.

So now cost more : power, research.
Cost less : production, walls and structures.

I'm still totally open to balance suggestion and comment.

[Iluvalar]

CTTV05 is out !!http://cid-9506c397de59c968.office.live ... rzone?uc=1

I know what you will say : "where is V03 and V04 " so here's a tiny recap :

In CTTV03 we saw colored scavengers and better looking borgs, Their legs will not move, but at least they have a body ^^ . but my testers really found a balance issue that prevented further gaming so i never really talked about that version.

In CTTV04 I fixed defense structures evaluation to take into account the weapon that was on it along with their "wall" value. To make sure that the defense is not obsolete when you find your weapon or otherwise its accessible only many tech level later, I automaticaly reajusted the price to fit exactly at the same tech level then the weapon research. In V04 i think that all is at least balanced and fair. I hope so at least (Alway looking for bugs).

Now in CTTV05 I really worked hard on the "rythm". Does every faction have at least one body to start with ? At least a second fast enough to make some designs ? Do I we have the choice of at least a couple of weapons ? So there is a game, and different strategies possible. When i need to upgrade XYZ, is there any solution at hand ? Does the game end abruptly because i suddenly have all the power, all the research or all the possible weapons after 20 minutes ? (would be deceiving) Or likewise does the game stuck with everybody at the same tech level, same weapons, same bodies because the level 9 is so high it is innaccessible ? Does the power of the leading player litteraly explode from the tinyest oil advantage or rather do he just manage to keep a little advantage ahead of everybody and still have to fight more (and risk his position again) to win ?

This is all that timing that i've worked for you in V05 I hope you'll enjoy.

New :
*Tall person body : Faster less HP
*Fat person body : Slower more HP
*BaBa medical : early repair center for scavs and small bodies.
*All "first" weapons (the ones that unlock upgrades) now have a defense structure. When i say "all" i really mean "all" that also count for the EMP-bombs (paralysing bunker) and the VTOL BOMB (suicidal bunker ) maybe i should reduce it's hp to make a mine of it ?

Removed:
Anti gravity propulsion. That propulsion was too strong. After more consideration, I prefer seeing no more propulsion in the tech tree after a while then to see all design in the same too powerful propulsion.

Bug:
Apparently the AI refuse to play in team, it will crash the game. But if it play solo the strenght of that AI is still impressive. My hardest AI is AFAIK undefeated.

Recap:
1)Everything in the game is attached to the "tech level" branch depending of it evaluated (directly from stat data) strenght.
2-A) The weapons upgrades only appear after it first relevant weapon
2-B) The other weapons of the set appear after a certain amount of ROF upgrade. (never the damage upgrade) AND a tech level
2-C) Defense and sensor structures are unlocked after the relevant building, They are now always on the same tech lvl. So always acessible streight after the weapon.
3) You need one of the four HQ to unlock one fourth (+auto viper and tiger) of the bodies. Don't wait to have that body to build the HQ and make designs !!!

Some other hints
*All weapons have the same amount of upgrade. That mean that late weapons can grow extremly high in power. We are used to a laser that have 3dmg and 3 rof upgrade beware of the one that have 8 and 4 of them !! That might be the solution if you are stuck with undestructibles structures later in game quit the MG !!
*The upgrades are on the first pages. All the weapons are also grouped and later the structures. If you dont find the exact research you are looking for, try to spot similar research first.
*Don't hesitate to explore new bodies and new wepons ! mix and enjoy ! There is lot of thing I never tried yet.
*"standard" buildings (if you ever manage to unlock them) are stronger then the T0 building given at first. Replace them.
*The Workers have the "construction skill" that is awful ! Try to design new trucks with new spades once in a while. that will surely help you to build faster and swith to T1 buildings in time.

[Iluvalar]

Yesterday my evil doing middle mouse button copied of code and destroyed a variable name in my code, surprisingly the script continued to work but the weapons upgrades where treated like usual upgrade. In consequence, all weapons upgrade appear in the tech tree even if you didn't research the first weapon at all. That mean that 2 pages of research in the begining are quickly filled with junk. That's why :

CTTV06 is out !! \o/

[effigy]

I'll post a few of my opinions here, some I've already said in IRC. I hope the forum will show more interest in this mod.

- tech that depends on other tech to be useful shouldn't appear before or concurrent with the tech that makes it useful (ex. VTOL pad coming before VTOL factory) regardless of whether or not "it's inexpensive."

- research items that don't provide new structures/droids should be removed (i.e., scav research and p gen)

- AA should be available sooner

- Cyborg Factory should not produce tank bodies, Tank Factory should not produce scavenger/cyborg units. I think it's OK for the scavenger factory to produce light body tanks, but maybe some turrets should not be possible (i.e. Missle Fort Turret)

- Workers seems painfully slow to produce, they are slow to build, and slow moving... can we produce them faster to make up for construction & engine speed?

- it would be cool if you could only choose to build 1 type of CC (but keep it so that certain CC unlocks certain body lines )

- scavenger/cyborg bodies need heads

- all research items need a model of some sort

[Iluvalar]

I'll post a few of my opinions here, some I've already said in IRC. I hope the forum will show more interest in this mod.

- tech that depends on other tech to be useful shouldn't appear before or concurrent with the tech that makes it useful (ex. VTOL pad coming before VTOL factory) regardless of whether or not "it's inexpensive."
I pushed the rearming functionnality farther away, it will still appear sooner then the vtols, but at least not at the first page. I can't do it automaticaly. so if you find something else lie that, just tell me.

- research items that don't provide new structures/droids should be removed (i.e., scav research and p gen)
Done

- AA should be available sooner
Now AA only weapons are evaluated at 30% of their true value. Hurricane apparently is a good weapon. I guess the fact that it don't benifit from rocket upgrade play a role with that.

- Cyborg Factory should not produce tank bodies, Tank Factory should not produce scavenger/cyborg units. I think it's OK for the scavenger factory to produce light body tanks, but maybe some turrets should not be possible (i.e. Missle Fort Turret)
I told you on IRC but it's a good question : Anything that we design is actually considered like a "droid". I would like a fully and moddable propulsion oriented control. I guess that it will be useful for seaport but right now the is just an exception for vtol and a class of template named "cyborg". So if i want to keep a fully designable borg approach, i can't use borg fact like it is right now. So i tought it will be the best idea to recycle it as an heavy capability scavenger factory. The only other option is to remove it from the game .

- Workers seems painfully slow to produce, they are slow to build, and slow moving... can we produce them faster to make up for construction & engine speed?
Yes they cost twice as much and they produce at a speed of 3 instead of 8 for standard trucks. But i did 2 little thing for you 1) i reduced the weight of theire "construction skill" (that's a skill anyway it's not heavy ) 2) I have increased the price and production time of the "cyborg spade" (capacity:5) so you will be able to switch to that one if the standard worker are not enough. Note that if you are in the good faction, you can mount the "construction skill" on the tall-person body and they will be a lot faster.

- it would be cool if you could only choose to build 1 type of CC (but keep it so that certain CC unlocks certain body lines )
One is enough, they all gives enough body to play a game. If you are willing to pay 100$ more just to see a bit more bodies in the tech tree. I don't see any problem with that. Maybe i could increase the price even more if it was an issue. But i don't feel like it is.

- scavenger/cyborg bodies need heads
There is actualy one drawn on their texture file. I'm just using pie files actually in the game dont blame me.

- all research items need a model of some sort
I fixed BaBaMG. I dont find anything for the Babalegs

Many thx for all those feedback, pretty appreciated. CTTV07 might wait a couple of day as i need to plug something like the Cge mod into this one and fine tune because all models are too weak and explode on contact when both team are at same tech level.

[effigy]

Great I understand about droids & factories, but I hoped posting here would spark some suggestions from others.

[Goth Zagog-Thou]

Howdy guys, sorry I'm late to the party.

I think your mod is a great idea. I'll test it out as soon as I'm able to -- I tend to get distracted easily and Campaign 4 requires my full attention.

[Iluvalar]

CTTV07 is out !

After some test and some other fine tunings, I have unnerfed the research upgrades. You can now choose to be a research specialist and obtain some component way befores everybody else. But remember that you will have to pay for it and the cost/efficiency of the most research tend to decay the more the research cost increase.

You will now see that the mod comes in different "rythm" number : 4,7,15,30,60,120

This is the recommanded oil per faction. It's actually control the general cost of the research. If you play the recommended oil, you should reach T1 around 20:00 to 25:00 and clearly leading player (3x the recommended power) will take around 1:20:00 before he reach the end of the tech tree. This is too prevent both : too slow (boring) progression or too fast (always changing model grrr).

Of course, it's your choice ! That's why I packed a rythm of 4 even if the smallest maps have 6-7 oils / p. That for players that would like a quick, fast paced game with lot of new technology accessible quickly.

[Iluvalar]

Ok... Up !
The CTT mod work well in 2.3.8 but i don't plan to improve it for now.

However i'm really planning to make another mod and manually building the dream tech tree. Since I have that autobalance evalutation script at hand I can use it to adapat the components to their new spot in the tech tree instead of like i did in CTT where i was building the tree in function of the weapons values.

I have a real good idea of what I plan to do, but some of you might have good ideas too. I rebuilding the tech tree from scratch .