ManGodAi4x / AquaCoop, Comic, Cinematic…Terminal Dark.

[Olrox]

I'm Chinese. That translation looks correct. The Ancient Chinese had some good wisdom (cf. The Art of War), but they also had some fairly chauvinistic beliefs (hey, few ancient cultures didn't).

Surely. I've mentioned it because at least here in Brazil, many people seem to completely believe in old proverbs and maxims and dictums... I always use this one as an example that we cannot take all of them into account before thinking carefully about it (people here also have this bad habit of importing their opinions and conclusions, even morality - all that should rather be derived from deep reflections, IMO - from easy, ready sources instead).

Adopting knowledge as truth makes us cowards. Raising knowledge as the beginning of the truth is more adequate, IMO.

Anyway, enough reflections, I think :rolleyes:

~Olrox

P.S.:

What made me say what I said was the English word "dumb" which has 2 very different meanings: being a mute or being incredibly stupid.

Without knowing how to read Chinese I would say the author intended "mute" and NOT "incredibly stupid".

If I am correctly inferring the author's meaning then the translator's choice of "dumb" was not adept because it could be interpreted or construed as "incredibly stupid".

In this case I can guarantee it is "incredibly stupid". It was translated to portuguese when I've read it, and it was "Mais vale um menino estúpido do que dez meninas virtuosas", or something really close to that, but with no other considerable interpretations, I ensure you

[Rman Virgil]

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Hmmm.... then my choice of translation into English would have been "dumb ass boy" ... that way contrueing "mute" would not factor in at all. Though my vernacular may strike some as a bit too spicy or racy. LOL, btw.

- RV
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[Rman Virgil]

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Thought about getting into the relative merits of Richard Wilhelm's classic translation from the Chinese of the "The I Ching or Book of Changes" (1923) compared to the most recent by Taoist Master Alfred Huang (2006) but decided - Nah ! j/k

Back on trajectory...

Didn't finish the graphic illustrating the basic set-ups before I had to leave for a work assignment but I'll get it done & posted tomorrow, Monday.

The graphic will speak to many of my previous posts - though not all as the fun of discovery is something I donot wanna spoil.

One thing I have not spoken to beyond saying the vague "creating a campaign feel" I will now elaborate on briefly.

Aqua Co-op is a complex 4 D Map. (As distinct from the usual 1D, 2D & 3D plethora..)

What that means is that every detail serves a great variety of topographic game play roll-outs that are simultaneously time sensitive.

The original Campaign maps are 4 D by way of using the scripted timers.

The same effect can be achieved without timers or modding anything.

I won't bore you with just how to do it because after you've experienced playing a few times you'll be able to deduce those techniques, among others that are uncommon to the prepoderance of WZ maps.

Be back in about 16 hrs with the basic set-up graphic.

- RV
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[Rman Virgil]

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This is the graphic without the Legend.

The graphic I'm still working on, and will post later today, will have the LEGEND that will indicate
Player Teams, their composition (Veterans, Newbs, Scav Allies & Independent Scav Faction) and all start positions.

Caveat: The map topography details will continue to evolve with on going play testing but this will give you a good basic overview of what Aqua Co-op is about.

L8r, RV
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[Olrox]

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This is the graphic without the Legend.

The graphic I'm still working on, and will post later today, will have the LEGEND that will indicate
Player Teams, their composition (Veterans, Newbs, Scav Allies & Independent Scav Faction) and all start positions.

Caveat: The map topography details will continue to evolve with on going play testing but this will give you a good basic overview of what Aqua Co-op is about.

L8r, RV
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It's looking awesome already! I especially like the shorelines, they look very realistic.
I knew you would make something really different from what we usually see around here. The whole feeling already stands out from those "shallow" maps. I can already imagine a map with these proportions full of small details.

It's worth the time investment, surely!

~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

It's looking awesome already! I especially like the shorelines, they look very realistic.
I knew you would make something really different from what we usually see around here. The whole feeling already stands out from those "shallow" maps. I can already imagine a map with these proportions full of small details.

I thank you humbly for the encouraging words.

I am going for realism in the details - lots ! Stuff I am attempting because of the robust tool set Flail13 created with FlaME. I would have thought twice before doing this in EW or 32EW. Again, kudos to Flail13. xD

With the overall geography I'm doing something akin to the literary "magical realism" of Gabriel Garcia Marquez.... in the sense that I'm combining and compressing geography unlike what you would ordinarily see in RL. The artistic rationale is the same - creating more variety and tension in a bounded virtual world scape.

It's worth the time investment, surely!

~Olrox

I sure hope so. Balancing this map is gonna be like wrestling with a hungry mama Grizzly Bear for 10 rounds while her frisky cubs nip at my bare feet. O_O

Anyhow.... below is the promised graphic with the early iteration of the Players Set-Up Legend.

Regards, RV

EDIT: I'd like to reiterate that Aqua Co-op has benefited deeply from the concepts offered by 4nE and Olrox. Those concepts I have summed as Agreeable, Variable Skill Handicapping and Team Specialization Opportunities. In part, the implementation epiphany I mentioned earlier consisted in combining these 2 concepts into one fluid implementation . You may be able to deduce that epiphany from the graphic below.

You will also be able to see these earlier mentioned design goals:

~ "Escape Hatch Reprieve Sector" opportunities

~ "Independent Scav contingent" with its own special A.I. (as Player 7)

~ "Scav Allies" that are Human Player Controllable in MP (as well by the SP Ski A.I.)

~ The "Aquatic Maze" puzzle pieces. (These also offer tactical opportunities I'll not spell out and should thus eventually enter into your strategic planning.)

~ Multiple "Backdoor" topographic opportunities.


And these will have to remain a mystery till you play the map some:

~ Canny Airlift Trans Deployment LZs (not designated as such, but will enable cyborg deployments were in the transport is parked at sea-level and the troops deployed to the heights above.)

~ Tricky Resource Cache opportunities

~ Conventional Resource Placements

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[Rman Virgil]

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Enough posting on "Aqua Co-op's" design goals for now.

Being very conservative, I'll have an open beta for stress-testing some time between the 3rd & 4th weeks in March (like I said earlier, I work slow and am meticulous, plus I have a full plate of other commitments involving $$ these days - on top of my regular job.)

Even with all the play-testing I'll be doing as I proceed between now and that open beta, "Aqua Co-op" will still be in need of savvy feedback from seasoned WZ MPers. Though I may do my darnedest to consider all possible game play scenario possibilities in MP (& SP Ski) I have no doubt you guys will find things I missed, don't work as optimally as planned and have suggestions for improving which I will be grateful for and work towards integrating.

Side-Bar: Usually when I work on stuff like this, I'll be inspired to create a related story or music or cinematic. So far with this project, I've only created some original music which expresses in wordless imagination (for me anyway) what I was seeking to capture in the map's game play potential. Perhaps I'll share that music in the interim, before "Aqua Co-op's" open beta release. The piece is called "Suspended". If i do post it, I'll go into more details about its creation at that time.

L8r, RV
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[Olrox]

Being very conservative, I'll have an open beta for stress-testing some time between the 3rd & 4th weeks in March (like I said earlier, I work slow and am meticulous, plus I have a full plate of other commitments involving $$ these days - on top of my regular job.)

Even with all the play-testing I'll be doing as I proceed between now and that open beta, "Aqua Co-op" will still be in need of savvy feedback from seasoned WZ MPers. Though I may do my darnedest to consider all possible game play scenario possibilities in MP (& SP Ski) I have no doubt you guys will find things I missed, don't work as optimally as planned and have suggestions for improving which I will be grateful for and work towards integrating.

Count on me! I think that with all this intricate qualities and tactical possibilities, and the captivating announcement methods, you'll have a great number of people wanting to test that, too, by that time

It may be a somewhat long wait for internet-users who are accostumated to see things evolve from an idea to a popular thing with fixed bugs in a week, but it's worth it :rolleyes:

Regards,
~Olrox

[Rman Virgil]

Count on me! I think that with all this intricate qualities and tactical possibilities, and the captivating announcement methods, you'll have a great number of people wanting to test that, too, by that time

Regards,
~Olrox

When I get to the point in my dev /play testing when I cannot think of any more ways to make it better I was thinking of passing it to you and 4nE before open beta release because I'm sure you 2 will find ways of improving that I missed. I'll PM you when I get to that stage.

It may be a somewhat long wait for internet-users who are accustomed to see things evolve from an idea to a popular thing with fixed bugs in a week, but it's worth it :rolleyes:

The need for "instant gratification", I call it.

In this regard, my muse sees the general populace as occupying 2 distinct camps - "end users" & "creators". Creators grok end users as part of their vocation. End users can grok creator's finished work somewhat within their bubble of perception. Most end users, however, cannot grok the act or process of creation at all. Also, creators lead into the unknown; when end users follow, creators have already moved on to other uncharted territory. Creators are in their element in uncharted territory. End users would rather occupy their comfort zone, aka, the staus quo.

Anyhow, back to creating. xD

Regards, RV
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[Rman Virgil]

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The previous Mini-Map gave an overview, the following screen cap gives you a better idea of how I am proceeding with the topographic development aesthetically as well as how it will influence maneuver - my key criteria being inexhaustible maneuver opportunities.

At this stage I take notes looking towards player placements and resources vis-a-vis how topography will challenge creative decision making on both the strategic and tactical levels of maneuver. Once I make my initial player, resource and feature placements I'll compile the map to test for path finding and optimal maneuver opportunity roll-outs. From there I'll go back and forth between FlaME and in-game, tweaking placements and topography.

On the insight front....

Conventional warfare, as well symmetric maps, are focused on 2 traditional concepts of engagment - a Center of Gravity and the Front Lines relative to it.

Aqua Co-op is from the bottom up thoroughly asymmetric not because I'm simply striving for a natural realism of topography but because I also wanna create opportunities for asymmetric strategy, at the very least, but as well I hope some asymmetric tactics will flow naturally through the design. With that in mind, scroll up to my graphic with the Player Placement Legend.

In addition to the discussion accompanying that graphic I'm gonna tell you what else underlies those particular design decisions. Aqua Co-op by design attempts to create 2 fundamental conditions of modern and future Asymmetric Warfare -

NO one Center of Gravity and therefore no fixed, immutable, front lines...

Keeping this last statement in mind, go back & look at that referenced graphic with fresh eyes.

Can you see, that by design, there are potentially Multiple Centers of Gravity ?

Anyway, back to the joys of creation...

- RV
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[DarkCheetah]

Still trying to figure out just how to incoporate the suggestions involving "Team Specializing" and "Variable Skill Handicapping".... worth figuring out, I believe. We'll see if some epiphany comes to the fore I can integrate fluidly and artfully.

Think I've had that epiphany.

A practical concept wherein I can incorporate 4nE and Olrox's ideas related to handicapping & specialization along with all else I'm doing design wise.

I'll post a graphic layout Sunday that covers how these concepts manifest as an integrated whole with these other mentioned devices:

~ "Escape Hatch Reprieve Sector" opportunities

~ "Tricky Resource Cache" opportunities

~ "Canny Airlift Trans Deployment LZs"

~ "Independent Scav contingent" with its own special A.I. (as Player 7)

~ "Scav Allies" that are Human Player Controllable in MP (as well be driven by the SP Ski A.I.)

~ The "Aquatic Maze"

~ "Backdoor" topographic opportunities.

See to getting that graphic done by Sunday. Be much longer to getting it all ship-shape for stress-testing. Oh well, a thousand mile walk gets done by steadily putting one step in front of the other, to paraphrase an old Chinese adage.

- RV
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what? you can script maps? amazing! i'v seen a lz drop in skirmish before, but never been a succesn i'd so love to have more scripted maps in warzone, so it finaly becomes a next gen rts, like Warcraft 3 =D

[Rman Virgil]

what? you can script maps? amazing! i'v seen a lz drop in skirmish before, but never been a succesn i'd so love to have more scripted maps in warzone, so it finaly becomes a next gen rts, like Warcraft 3 =D

Yes, I can script maps. I have 3 completed, working, Mini-Campaign Maps - but none are compatible with the current binary. They took forever to make because I script to be self-sufficient (not because I love scripting) and I am NOT scripting anything into "Aqua Co-op" because I don't have time these days, for one... AND 2, I can achieve all my stated goals without scripting and 3, it does not fit this Co-op map's design.... it would actually be, to my mind, a major BALANCE complication of little end value to all else I'm doing that's fun fresh.

The Canny Airlift LZs I referenced earlier have nothing to do with the Campaign Tank Transport.... It's all about the Cyborg Transport and a New Cyborg Airlift GPM achieved purely through mapping without scripting. The LZ's will not be identified as such. I'll probably have to explain a wee bit on how to spot 'em & take advantage of those particular areas on the map to utilize the airlift maneuver effectively as part of a multi-vectored offensive... it's pretty satisfying to pull-off, I think. I first discovered and refined it for WS 2113 and it's fairly easy to re-create for "Aqua Co-op".

Maybe on my next map I'll incorporate some scripting elements. I actually do have scripts already written for a map that's still on the drawing board called "Reed's Lair"... inspired by the very last mission of the original campaign which I thought was way easy and somewhat anti-climactic...... but that's another story.

As a consolation DarkCheetah, if you can run Pumpkin's v.1.10 I can send you one of my Mini-Cams called "Marooned" - it's quite fun, I think.

Regards, RV
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[DarkCheetah]

thats realy cool! you are just warzone's future!

making scripts in warcraft 3 maps is easy, like spawns and conditions, you know what i mean?
if this was same for warzone then yeah, best maps evah!

[Olrox]

thats realy cool! you are just warzone's future!

making scripts in warcraft 3 maps is easy, like spawns and conditions, you know what i mean?
if this was same for warzone then yeah, best maps evah!

hahahahahahahaha, you never cease to make me laugh xD

[Rman Virgil]

thats realy cool! you are just warzone's future!

making scripts in warcraft 3 maps is easy, like spawns and conditions, you know what i mean?

if this was same for warzone then yeah, best maps evah!

O_O

hahahahahahahaha, you never cease to make me laugh xD

Ditto & :suprised:

I know what you mean DC but WZ's future is the whole of the Project Team's ongoing efforts combined with all the creative, active, modders, mappers, A.I. creators, 3D artists and tool-editor-utility makers in the community.

We had a WZ Campaign A.I. Script Editor back in 2001. Didn't make a bit of difference in peeps creating new campaign missions. It wasn't as user friendly as WC3's but it was a whole lot easier than writing scripts by hand in Notepad and still the deluge of new campaigns never happened.

Perhaps down the road when WZ A.I. scripting is completely migrated to LUA some tool designer will be inspired to create a Campaign Mission Editor with a very friendly GUI that is OOP based like "StarLogo TNG" or SimBionic

Campaign Mission Maps are totally engrossing when done well because of the story component brought to life in the game's virtual world and the player's immersion in that story as an active participant in the outcome. THAT experience is the future of gaming, IMHO. Indeed, I believe the original WZ campaign has been central in helping keep the game evolving since 1999 and was, I know, a big part of what fueled the indefatigable 5 year effort to liberate the source and follow (& sustain) the strat of cross-platform development after liberation.

Certainly, robust MP, upgraded GFX, & enhanced GPMs (cross-platform) will all be central to WZ's ongoing popular growth.... but you do have a good point DC that New Campaign Missions would factor very powerfully in that formula if they were NOT so time consuming to create and if there were an editor on a par with WC3's

Regards, RV
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