[mod]Next Research System (NRS) 2.3.9

Did you create a mod, map, music, or a tool? Present them here and earn feedback!
Note: addon requests do not belong here.
Note, everything uploaded to this forum, MUST have a license!
Post Reply
Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 30 Nov 2011, 11:53

Iluvalar, you know i dicovered what i cannot play good in NRS if i dont know stats...
so stats was unexpected for me. All your text descriptions of digits not helps!

What i found in stats:
Body upgrades is not so good. High end bodies have good stats but lso long time to build and price.
Light bodies are awfully cheap in comparison of heavy bodies
Retaliation NRS=7$, 2.3.9=68$
Vengeance NRS=34$, 2.3.9=130$

Also first bodies (viper) have longer build time and higher price than next bodies
Viper have x3 Cost and x3 Build Time than Bug and viper have less HP and armor..

Propulsion upgrades
1) Wheels 4 have incredible short build time and price
so high end body on wheels is exploit
2) Tracks upgrades is not so good because increased weight
slow units is sh*t

Light Cannon have greater build time than medium cannon!! really unexpected
Medium cannon also greater time than HPV and assault
Assault cannon have 2x times lesser cost than medium cannon.

Some weapons have x20 price than other weapons.
So meat tactics works nice when you make 100 meat units and 10-20 good high price units
Meat tactics works in NRS for another reasons:
- no care if your cheap army destroyed by lassat
- you dont know power of enemy units.. if you lost meat army you can resist and adopt fast

And at all i found build time is really important parameter in NTW-NRS, because good tactics when you accumulate money to make unexpected choise of weapon and attack with what weapon asap
Last edited by Reg312 on 30 Nov 2011, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

zydonk
Trained
Trained
Posts: 453
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 18:31
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by zydonk » 30 Nov 2011, 12:30

Iluvalar wrote:
Per wrote:So, the world has burned to ashes, civilization is history, and the Project is building up forces to fight off scavengers and other hostile factions. First thing, they take up a loan and start a bank.

... What?
Yes ! Definitively ! I believe you are wrong. Keeping in mind that "you are the only one survivor" while keep playing games after games with 7 other faction/players in different zone is a bit unbelievable.

You are just one of the so many little missions sent in a remote area to claim the resources in it. The resources are scarce and the land to control is so big and dangerous... Every single time we send a mining mission, they waste their whole budget into half track baby facotries and then send armies and do total battle without never ever thinking about the main plan. The overall wealth of the whole project is infinitely more important than any of those small remote bases.

Therefore, from now on, we'll send you with a small expendable scouting budget. You will install your small outpost, And it is only when you will come with a good down-to-earth plan that we will give you the special founds required. And because it's war everywhere and we can never really get energy in any other way, we'll ask you to plug your derrick right away and immediately send a part of the power to the main base. We believe you should actually send even more...

Maybe the word "bank" is inappropriate in this case, but I have chose a name player could understand. I need them to understand what they were into.

From a gameplay perspective, it's an incredibly rich mechanism. Some players might decide to start with more research and create some kind of "faction" with some starting bonus. Giving the feel one players is a long installed settlement in his production phase (so sending energy to the main base) being assaulted by a fresh newcomer with lower research but more number. And that will create cool new scenarii. Another nice possibility now, is one player making a fast and furious deployment grabbing 12 oil against another slower on the opening grabbing 8 oil but still both being able to fight each other in equal strenght.
Iluvalar, you are a genius no doubt - you should be running the ECB. But WZ is a game, not the kind of world that gets by on sub-prime debt. Consider, for instance, what is not paid for in WZ: ammo and repair, training of personnel. There are no in-theatre delivery systems for refuel or rearm; no power plants, no power transmission.

Take a look at Earth 2150 if you want a more realistic scenario - though pity about the AI.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 30 Nov 2011, 18:30

zydonk, I understand but the under 0 interest is not simply there for "realism" but because it was playtested and approved as a fun new mechanism. You can chose your starting power without breaking the balance of the game.

Reg312, I dont know what to answer except "yes" ? Many of your ideas look cool, but rely on non-multiplicative upgrades at some point to make a transition.

I will just add that "slowness" is taken into account in the autobalance and greatly rewarded. Slow units are not sh*t.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 30 Nov 2011, 19:45

Iluvalar wrote: Reg312, I dont know what to answer except "yes" ? Many of your ideas look cool, but rely on non-multiplicative upgrades at some point to make a transition.
last my post not about ideas, but about fact whan NRS mod is black box.
you still not publish change log in form "python HP was changed from value X to value Y"
Interest rate? you know children play WZ too :)

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 30 Nov 2011, 21:24

I said I changed the progression from 2 to √3 in 40 minutes. When i did that every single cost, hp, armor and damage changed according to it. I could not flood you with the totallity of the little changes each single version. However i'm using a script that do that with the less friction possible so your favorite design and distinctive particularity of the weapons should stay as much faithful as possible to original.

For exemple the medium cannon always had less production per cost than the light cannon. That is kept in my mod. Delaying more the light cannon only to make it cheaper at the end is highly editorial choice
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 04 Dec 2011, 21:25

NRS+V44
Sorry for the long delay
*Another new lab for x2 speed
*A new building called "bank" give you power right away but each will slide the O of the interest rate as well meaning you will lose some power because of interst if you use the bank power. Each bank will cost you 15% of your unupgrade power production in interest.
*The yellow and black bodies are now multi-turret. Mantis and veangeance even have 3 turrets ! :D Beware, I've been told the autobalance made them kinda fragile however
*Slighty changed the interest rate calculation again.
*Improved the propulsion line again (now 120%). I want the players to try to upgrade their propulsion. Encouraging players to lock on a propulsion at their own risk.

Here is 2 cool data I calculated from my settings of the mods. This might help you improve your gameplay :
1p) res/keep shift (in starting power output)= 85.2% (1 bank) -- prod/res shift (in full scale production time)=205s
2p) res/keep shift = 78.8% -- prod/res shift=123s
3p) res/keep shift = 74.1% -- prod/res shift=96s
4p) res/keep shift = 70.5% (2 bank) -- prod/res shift=82s

The research/keep ratio is the point were you are better to keep your power for interest rate than to research. Note that it is always under 100%. You can lose that power with banks, virus tower or just by losing derricks.

prod/res shift is the point were the effect of the research is favorable to the production of more units. By "full scale" I really mean 100% of the whole team power spent exclusively on production (units/structure or special).

So the question for a research can be resumed at "Do we have or will have, a total of 82s production of that [machine gun] ?" + "Do i have more than 21 (30x70%) oil of production atm ?".
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 04 Dec 2011, 23:16

A lot of the theory, but you again does not give actual changes in parameters :twisted:
you could simply log all changes... but i cannot understand why you don't do
seem you not say about 90% thing which happened in NRS
and i dont care for res/productions rate.. just know if i do much res then i lose production

So if you do auto-balance then you could say about few thing which comes, for example:
1) propulsion upgrades nerfed this way for multi-turrets
2) lancer, tank killers was improved because it do very high damage and can retreat.. low armor and HP of mullti-turrets not affect lancer tactic
3) bodies and weapons with high production rate was improved because of interest rate and banks
4) ...

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 07 Dec 2011, 04:02

@Reg312 : I'm not aware of what you ask me to comment. I am exploring and discovering the mod as everybody else.

NRS+V46
*The research message is inverted it now say : for x% get y%. I've been told it was more natural that way.
*New building called "housing" as been fitted between reactor and solar plant. It is deceivingly just give enough power output to compensate his price in interest rate. :( .
*Power output buildings are autobalanced ! \o/. This mean that the housing building that do nothing good will therefore be extremely hard to take down. The housing is therefore a materialization of your power usable as a shield to protect more valuable part of your city. Making a "simcity" gameplay theoricaly possible and, as far i'll try to balance it, just another fair way to win a game. We might see some special game where we fight inside a forest of buildings. Hopefully.
*power module effectivenss reduced (25%). It was not fitting in the game limit otherwise. Please take note that the new effectivess (since banks) is aware of the combination debt+power and therefore the power upgrade are nerfed accordingly. I know that many players started to rush the module using the bank interest as a starter, but it was taken into account before you had the idea :P.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 08 Dec 2011, 03:52

NRS+V48
*2 "new" weapons. The scavenger AT rocket and the bus cannon. I retrieved them in the stat files for 2 main reason : A) I believe that giving the mg by default was really encouraging player to build and then to research it. B) The only realy counter to mg is track (htrack works but just so little), which are obtained later. Enough to justify another reasearch in mg. As it is mainly a versatile weapon, with few weakness, it was enough for player to keep it in about 90% of the game. At least as an alt. My goal is to make each weapon lines come out in the game more evenly. C) I was getting bored of the mg ^^.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 08 Dec 2011, 11:20

nice.
i've not tried new weapons.. i think it is better in NRS to make each weapon line with various kinds (cheap-expensive, weak-strong, less build points - high build points)
Currently in NRS we have cheap MG, cheap cannons, expensive lasers etc.
i suggest you add at least 1 expensive mg with with higher parameters,1 expensive cannon, 1 cheap artillery etc..
each weapon line should be more independent and gives player more choices (example: what to make light cannon or medium cannon?)

also i checked price of howitzer and riple rockets.. seem you nerfed howitzers comparing to original WZ

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 08 Dec 2011, 19:03

Hehe, I try to avoid that as much as possible XD . Even if i also try to make variability insides lines and I agree that some are boring. The reason for that is simple : I want to give players the capacity to force another one out of his main line. This is exactly the opposite of what you ask. Each lines have inherent weakness.
Reg312 wrote:also i checked price of howitzer and riple rockets.. seem you nerfed howitzers comparing to original WZ
Yep and howitzer is faster than bombard to get now. It is clearly faster than ripples. Research mortar upgrades during the remaining of the ripple research. And compare on that base.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 08 Dec 2011, 19:37

Iluvalar wrote:I want to give players the capacity to force another one out of his main line. This is exactly the opposite of what you ask.
i think it is more interesting when each weapon line can be the best for some players
.. so each line can include 1 main type and 1 additional type
also, my dream is when two weapon lines can open something another.. for example mortar+flamer gives incendiary mortar in original WZ.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 08 Dec 2011, 20:03

There is nothing that prevent you form having a favorite line that you chose most of the time. That's the fun part of NRS where each player can have their own style everything is possible. However, you will always have to deal with serious archenemies. You will end up with 1 or 2 other "favorite alt". That you will need to maintain in case your are attacked on one of your weakness. Anyway, you have to fill more than one lab, so your favorite strat. (if any) will be more than one line.

If your plan is to allow player to keep with their strict research plan from the start to the end without need to adapt to their opponents, it's opposed to the principle of my mod that plan that a part of the game is played inside the lab.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 09 Dec 2011, 01:32

Iluvalar wrote: If your plan is to allow player to keep with their strict research plan from the start to the end without need to adapt to their opponents, it's opposed to the principle of my mod that plan that a part of the game is played inside the lab.
you can adapt only in begin stage of game.
when you have 100 rockets and enemy have 100 cyborgs is late to adopt! if enemy just noob then you still can adapt
ok, you say about scouting. but deep scouting can be prevented
adaptation works for weapon modifiers, adding expensive cannon or cheap laser will not break adaptation logic!
research adaptation can be used in small subset of games.
i try explain:
your first move - research and make something.. in this time you know nothing about enemy's plan. you can scout, but enemy closed his base and you only can see last produced cyborg with MG.
NRS have hard bases. if you attack with 20-30 units enemy can defend easy, just make walls and 10 units of any type.
so you need 50-100 units to see what enemy doing
then you lose or you win. if happened what forces are equal then you forced to continue attack or hold hard defense
on this stage adapt to another weapon or something is very very expensive.. you need more and more units to hold enemies..
say where is the moment when you can adapt and spent much power and time to another research?

adaptation can work in low oil games when you not need attack enemy base.. you attack oil with small groups and enemy forced to defend.
so i have conclusion: adapt works bad in NTW and works better in low oil

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1819
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 09 Dec 2011, 06:07

Reg312 wrote:
Iluvalar wrote: I
your first move - research and make something.. in this time you know nothing about enemy's plan. you can scout, but enemy closed his base and you only can see last produced cyborg with MG.

So i successfully scouted walls. right ? XD
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Post Reply