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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 18 Nov 2011, 21:04
by Iluvalar
zany wrote: this dude knows what he is talking about.
how the hell is this mod coming up with the changes?
we tried 4 lan games to get a feel for what is going on and nobody liked the idea of a interest rate or the way things got changed.
no disrespect but this mod isn't very good dude.
If "nobody" liked the idea, you didn't played facing any "veteran" players in that mod. Even if the tree is plainly open, there is some main rules that players must obey to if they want to survive. Research mainly T1 (so you will win against anybody that dont), spend massively even if you could get interest. Either because you need to push the opponent with higher research priority, or to survive to the opponent with lower research (more units) the time you get decisive advantage.

I guess that if none of the players know the main scheme and they all explore freely the tech tree without constraint, you might feel a lack of purpose. A void of direction.

What I suggest, if you stil want to give the mod a chance is to play against a set of non-cheating (first difficulty) AI. They will teach you fast enough if you don't have any other veteran players in your game XD. You will see that clicking on lassat in the lab is a do or die bet and that keeping your power in you pockets hoping for interest rate is a bit harder when your teammates beg for help :twisted: .

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 20 Nov 2011, 07:13
by Iluvalar
V27 will be a big one.

I had some preoccupation with Cyp and other players that took the habit to take exaggerated risk with research at start. especially In FFA where it's not that hard to hide in a corner. There is some point where such player get rewarded for that behavior., Suddenly breaking trough the battle field with Drake and gauss. This is partly intentional as i want that upper layer of researching more or less to exist. What was not intentionnal is that it take so much few time to reach impossible to stop designs.

I have changed the progression speed. For the same research time of 20 minutes, you will no more multiply your power by 2 but only by √3 and after 40 minutes you'll be closer then 300% then 400% but as it is easy to find 5 to 7 research that multiply each other after 40 minutes you will be more the 5 time weaker. This will change many things in the mod, you might like some.

1. Research is weaker. It mean at first time that you'll probably want to have more units and less labs.
2. The interest rate (following the same progression) is also a lot lower.
3. The weapons modifiers will be more important, as it take more time to outcome that effect. You'll get more time to think and change your weapons to fit enemies.
4. Sadly, it will take more time to the obviously winning faction to really get the final advantage.
5. Lesser feeling of getting super powerful over time

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 21 Nov 2011, 08:33
by Reg312
changes are good for me
Can you include some change logs, where i can see what was actually changed?
if i understand correct, you changed only research time?
Iluvalar wrote: HP/armor vs DMG/ROF
Real high damages are not that much affected by high armors. Since it's subtractive logic, 6 or 9 kinetic armor will not affect that much a 50 dmg weapon (like tank killers) but it will on a 15 dmg weapon (like mg). Beware to not overdo the armor. The dmg is caped to a minimum of 1/3. Any improvement of armor after that stage will be useless. The construction of the tech tree should make that armor consideration as important as the weapon modifiers one.
i have some thoughts about weapon vs armor..
in WZ i see some weapons types, not only by damage modifier
1) some weapons are armor-piercing, armor have less effectiveness against lancer, tank killer, heavy cannon
but armor works nice with other weapons, including lasers, flamers, twin cannon, MG
so first weapon type for me is "armor-piercing"
2) second type is weapon with high ROF and lesser ROF
for example you can fight lancer army with zerg of small tanks and win, because lancers have less ROF
lancer better to deal with heavy strong tanks

as i see in NRS we have only linear weapon lines and most of them is armor-piercing, but not sure.
i think it would be nice include more weapons which are not armor-piercing but better on tanks with weak armor
may be research line can have some branches

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 22 Nov 2011, 03:47
by Iluvalar
*Autobalance : Adaptator : Reduced the amount of effect that goes into the armor. Keeping more of the heavy bodies armor (at the cost of HP however).
*Autobalance¹ : the repair turret.
*Autobalance¹ : the construction turret. They now cost more (it cost the same price than to cancel a single machine gun) (not very noticeable, the body having more impact here)
*Autobalance : Weapons modifiers and "air to surface" unified.
*Autobalance : Weapon modifier modifier (lol) is now square-rooted. In other words, I assume both players have brains. Won't build AA if you dont expect some vtols, dont assume you'll face a majority of tanks when you go for anti-tank rockets but assume you will if you go for anti-personnal (mg or laser) etc... Instead assume you'll get half way between the "mean" distribution and what would be optimal for/against you.
*Scaled more the light vs heavy body difference . This increase the importance of the choice
¹ these might not get into autobalance mod.

*I hated the change in timing provoked by the viper weight change. So guess what ? It's not inverted and viper have stats of a medium body now. You will see that cobra can be seen as a pure upgrade of the viper (same price more HP) however vipers still buildable in lvl1 factory.
*To complete my idea, i have scaled down the price of cannons and flamers so there will be no T1 weapon that will fit perfeclty the viper medium body.

@Reg312 : Those body changes will improve the DMG/ROF thing a lot. I was doing that today just before i read you message. All change are listed here. And In the "readme" file packed in all mods. I try to keep the first post up to date as well.

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 22 Nov 2011, 16:21
by Reg312
Hey Iluvalar. i have idea for mod :)
Cost for building research facilities can be higher for every facility you built
first research facilities - 100$, second 500$, third 2000$, fourth 10000$ etc

what it gives:
1) More frequent using of interest rate, because people should accumulate money for making next research facility
2) more accurate selecting research lines at start
3) new way to balance research and money
it can be realised in script at "CALL_RESEARCHCOMPLETED" event and it requires special research item like "Add research facility"
upd: forgot about research sharing, another way is make few lines for res in stuctures.txt

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 23 Nov 2011, 17:28
by Arreon
For the next version, can you update the structure templates list so that you can have more choices from the start on what weapons go on which base? I'd love to see a Light Cannon emplacement, which is weaker, but costs less and takes less time to build.

I can elaborate if necessary.

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 23 Nov 2011, 23:19
by Iluvalar
@Reg312 : This is called research upgrade and research module. It effectively increase your research capacity. ;)

@Arreon : No. No need to elaborate. I understand your request but I will need to refuse. At least in 2.3. If I start to accept your request everybody will ask to have all kind of new structures. And afaik, I have about 10 spot remaining for structures. If i had to add more structure it would be to fill the gap for weapons that have none or 1 structure in priority.

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 24 Nov 2011, 10:14
by Reg312
Iluvalar wrote:@Reg312 : This is called research upgrade and research module. It effectively increase your research capacity. ;)
ok ok
then i propose make some upgrades which require much money and give good advantage, current ones not so good
much more money for me is when player should accumulate money... 2000, 5000
if you made your interest rate then make it working

also i propose make better labels for nuclear reactor and for some new things... "50% fot 50%" what is it

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 26 Nov 2011, 08:15
by Iluvalar
Ok you won... you won...

*After discovering some new "blue" material in some far away land, you decided to spend a tremendous budget into research to discover what it was. After a long and expensive research you found that the blue material was in fact blue material... oh well too bad.... you recycled the blue material you had into structure material and now you have a super expensive state of the art laboratory called "eXthrIII". You better find something else to research not to spoil that money....
*The command relay is reborn ! And now give you data about the power holded by every players. My guess is that you wont want to building after a few try. but I've been somewhat asked for that.

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 26 Nov 2011, 10:38
by Reg312
blue material is just dope for scientists, be careful with that

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 03:59
by Iluvalar
After a few more tunings here what is new (V38)

*Omega Lab
On top of the eXThrIII (please pronounce "X-3") there is another lab called the Omega lab. (that is x10) PLEASE please.. note that it cost 10 time your starting power as well. I fyou want such lab to worth it cost, you need to fill it continualy with research which is even more expensive than the lab itself. It's a beast that always ask more and it's not meant to be built as casual buildings but as extreme exceptionnal one. If you want a more down to earth turbo research, prefer the eXThrIII.

You will now start with theorically just enought power to build your base in 4 minutes IF you start with the power generator. That is very low amount of power. However you also start with a new building called the Bank. I strongly suggest you build one AND ONLY ONE at the start of your building order. Each bank give you power representing 20% of you power capacity (based on the number of oil in the map) in a loan. This will depend of the map. I'm not really sure of that, but the real interest threshold should be near during the second bank. From that point it would become better to keep your money than to research.

So why limiting to 5 if 1 is the recommended amount ? Two reason : By creating the bank building I give players a clue about the loan that I was already planning in the few previous version and that is a really interesting spin-off of the interest rate. By giving so low power at start I force most player (but maybe not all) to go under 0 in power and therefore not being able to build on interest but more like in real war, borrowing to finance the assault. The other reason is i'm sure there is practical strategy for more or less bank construction it's just a matter of time before players start to master the mechanism and start to explore another full layer of possibilities.

As always : i'm sorry for my early testers, each time I use their own reaction as a meter to adjust things, warnings, info... thanks to them and i'm sorry if often I leave them with partial information.

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 09:27
by Reg312
all interest rate is bad idea if game does not inform players about money income (positive interest rate) or money lost (negative interest rate). thats all

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 12:33
by Per
So, the world has burned to ashes, civilization is history, and the Project is building up forces to fight off scavengers and other hostile factions. First thing, they take up a loan and start a bank.

... What?

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 14:57
by Reg312
:lol2: :lol2:

ok ok first thing they wait 200ms before do anything :P

Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Posted: 29 Nov 2011, 19:08
by Iluvalar
Per wrote:So, the world has burned to ashes, civilization is history, and the Project is building up forces to fight off scavengers and other hostile factions. First thing, they take up a loan and start a bank.

... What?
Yes ! Definitively ! I believe you are wrong. Keeping in mind that "you are the only one survivor" while keep playing games after games with 7 other faction/players in different zone is a bit unbelievable.

You are just one of the so many little missions sent in a remote area to claim the resources in it. The resources are scarce and the land to control is so big and dangerous... Every single time we send a mining mission, they waste their whole budget into half track baby facotries and then send armies and do total battle without never ever thinking about the main plan. The overall wealth of the whole project is infinitely more important than any of those small remote bases.

Therefore, from now on, we'll send you with a small expendable scouting budget. You will install your small outpost, And it is only when you will come with a good down-to-earth plan that we will give you the special founds required. And because it's war everywhere and we can never really get energy in any other way, we'll ask you to plug your derrick right away and immediately send a part of the power to the main base. We believe you should actually send even more...

Maybe the word "bank" is inappropriate in this case, but I have chose a name player could understand. I need them to understand what they were into.

From a gameplay perspective, it's an incredibly rich mechanism. Some players might decide to start with more research and create some kind of "faction" with some starting bonus. Giving the feel one players is a long installed settlement in his production phase (so sending energy to the main base) being assaulted by a fresh newcomer with lower research but more number. And that will create cool new scenarii. Another nice possibility now, is one player making a fast and furious deployment grabbing 12 oil against another slower on the opening grabbing 8 oil but still both being able to fight each other in equal strenght.