Starting power level amount

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aubergine
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by aubergine » 05 Mar 2013, 23:06

Would it be worth, in a future release, having a menu link to give feedback? And make that feedback really easy to give (direct web form, no registration required)? Maybe this could get some of the offline players to provide information about what they like / dislike about the game. Without such feedback, we're really just guessing at what their feelings and experiences are.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 06 Mar 2013, 01:24

aubergine wrote:Would it be worth, in a future release, having a menu link to give feedback? And make that feedback really easy to give (direct web form, no registration required)? Maybe this could get some of the offline players to provide information about what they like / dislike about the game. Without such feedback, we're really just guessing at what their feelings and experiences are.
Great idea, why not take it to the full potential? Imagine having the wz forums imbedded directly in the game... this would be great, having like the game lobby a social hub for wz players - it would be nice to see info coming up about games underway as well, ie look! xplayer is getting pwned! lalalala or something like a mini newsfeed coming thru about what is happening in the game, with the ability for the players to save it so they have a record of the game... just throwing around ideas... I do know that after particularly epic battles I often stay around after the game and feel a little sad that there are is no record of what happened lol

There are quite a few clans on WZ I have noticed, but there is not really much of a way to get a ladder going, it is hard to communicate and there is no central type place to gather - wz2100.net just doesn't seem the like the place... but if there was social features embedded in the game it's self, well maybe peeps would get more organised... ok I am ranting and raving and totally off topic once again so that is enough... well almost

just to say that there are many people that would stick with the game more if they felt a part of some kind of social net, at this stage the mp lobby is quite a lonely area, you sort of know that there are others there, but no way to talk to them... and once in a game a very simplistic chat does not help much - don't get me wrong, i am not dissing the devs, the guys have done a great job, really. It's just that it would be good to see whos online, or more importantly whether it is worth hosting a game or not - at this time hosting a game is like going trout fishing, you know that you will catch a few, but will it take minutes or hours?

I just feel that now since the game is somewhat stable, that it should go thru a polishing period for a time before implementing complex features. I really think that a large percentage of resources should be pushed to getting the UI / Social aspect of the game enhanced to the fullest. The game it's self is already brilliant and will weather a time of polishing... just my two cents
Last edited by Rommel on 06 Mar 2013, 01:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Mar 2013, 01:30

aubergine wrote:Would it be worth, in a future release, having a menu link to give feedback? And make that feedback really easy to give (direct web form, no registration required)? Maybe this could get some of the offline players to provide information about what they like / dislike about the game. Without such feedback, we're really just guessing at what their feelings and experiences are.
+1

Something of a survey. Very useful.

How would it be constructed ? Wording, data harvesting and such ?
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 06 Mar 2013, 01:37

Embedding a social media and feedback tools are great ideas, but I'm not sure they're really going to help the average gamer looking to jump in and join the action (which is what I believe to be the target user of this subject).

Simplifying the tech tree has been discussed so many times...that reminds me, though, I've been neglecting to give the Step Research Mod some attention.

I think the main thing that makes the tech tree too complicated for "just anyone" to dive in and start gaming is that the path to unlock anything new is not obvious. It's also not always clear what a particular weapon is suppose to be good for (though hopefully that's easily detectable after a game or too). Hidden game mechanics hurt too, such as the "Orders Menu" (?). You can right click a factory to pull this up, as well as pressing numpad 0 (useful for transports).
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 06 Mar 2013, 01:47

I wonder if the actual tech tree could be added somewhere so it could be accessed in game? Say when you hovered over research items it would bring up the tree showing the the things that the item would unlock?
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Mar 2013, 02:16

effigy wrote:Embedding a social media and feedback tools are great ideas, but I'm not sure they're really going to help the average gamer looking to jump in and join the action (which is what I believe to be the target user of this subject).

Simplifying the tech tree has been discussed so many times...that reminds me, though, I've been neglecting to give the Step Research Mod some attention.

I think the main thing that makes the tech tree too complicated for "just anyone" to dive in and start gaming is that the path to unlock anything new is not obvious. It's also not always clear what a particular weapon is suppose to be good for (though hopefully that's easily detectable after a game or too). Hidden game mechanics hurt too, such as the "Orders Menu" (?). You can right click a factory to pull this up, as well as pressing numpad 0 (useful for transports).
I agree with all that. Strongly suspect any survey would point in these directions for the 10s of thousands that have tried MP and walked away from the game all together - unless they've decided to just stick to SP / SKI.

Also with your assessment of the Tut Mode. To which I would add the CAM - it really doesnot prepare for MP.... is, in a sense, misleading.

Sounds like the main thrust is the complexity of the tech tree being daunting to the point of discouraging for most new comers and how to change that dynamic because the loss of audience is actually staggering.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 06 Mar 2013, 02:40

Rman Virgil wrote:...

Sounds like the main thrust is the complexity of the tech tree being daunting to the point of discouraging for most new comers and how to change that dynamic because the loss of audience is actually staggering.
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I fear any long term solution is going to mean a lengthy rewrite + major changes in the current game. Tool tips showing the path to the nearest new weapon might be helpful, though I think it would add a lot of clutter, and likely require a much needed rewrite of the gui.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 06 Mar 2013, 03:46

effigy wrote: ... and likely require a much needed rewrite of the gui.
This is what i am hearing a lot. It seems that to open up new possibilities and to move forward the pre-requisite is the GUI system. There has been talk about creating/integrating some kind of GUI framework and really it is looking more and more like this is the real priority.

The thing I have found in my job is that the devil is in the details, it is very easy to get things up to the prototype stage and lots of fun to keep doing new things, add new features... but to succeed you need to polish, even to the extent that you hold off on adding additional features until you have the existing stuff working perfectly. This is one thing that I hate about programming, but it is very important.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 06 Mar 2013, 20:05

how about someone make a tech tree program and then people can use it while the game is running until they know the tech tree?
you have to run warzone in a window and then run that program at same time

I can't find the post now but there was talk about having a full launch program for warzone so that would solve the all in one way to fix many of the problems we have when trying to get games going

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 06 Mar 2013, 20:52

how about someone make tutorial type videos and then they could be included in the game and they could have popup comments about why you doing things like that?

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Mar 2013, 23:50

.

Here's a thought that involves psychological dynamics playing out with either retrograde results or generative results; outcomes predicated on basic MP venue structures in place recognizing these very dynamics.

Newbs are not only intimidated by the complexity of the tech tree.

They are also intimidated by the MP venue. Experienced players would much rather play with others on their level, for thoroughly understandable reasons.

In such a state, the synergies of crowdsource learning are not resting on fertile ground.

If there were a structure for newbs to mingle and play amongst themselves, the synergies of crowdsource learning would have a better chance to arise as the intimidation factor would be diminshed.

As their comfort level rose with deeper familiarity, newbs could transition to the intermediate level of mixing it up with more advanced players.

As well, there could be some experienced players that under this context, and structure, would be more inclined to mentor newbs now and then. Not so far fetched. I knew a great WZ player who did this for years.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 07 Mar 2013, 01:49

IIRC there are several tutorial vids geared for MP on YouTube by TheDaltx.
Rman Virgil wrote:....
If there were a structure for newbs to mingle and play amongst themselves, the synergies of crowdsource learning would have a better chance to arise as the intimidation factor would be diminshed.
...
I'll seagway this into something related I've asked for in the past: server side player stats. Through those (GUI rewrite, pending, ofcourse) players could see detailed information in the game lobby regarding how many games/wins/losses, etc a host (perhaps users in the game?) and be able to chose what game to join with an educated decision.
As well, there could be some experienced players that under this context, and structure, would be more inclined to mentor newbs now and then. Not so far fetched. I knew a great WZ player who did this for years.
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From what i've seen the treatment of "noobs" is a bit random. Some players are always rude, some just have bad days. Personally, I would have stopped playing after a month or two if not for a couple of nice guys giving me words of encouragement.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 07 Mar 2013, 02:19

Rman Virgil wrote:.

Here's a thought that involves psychological dynamics playing out with either retrograde results or generative results; outcomes predicated on basic MP venue structures in place recognizing these very dynamics.

Newbs are not only intimidated by the complexity of the tech tree.

They are also intimidated by the MP venue. Experienced players would much rather play with others on their level, for thoroughly understandable reasons.

In such a state, the synergies of crowdsource learning are not resting on fertile ground.

If there were a structure for newbs to mingle and play amongst themselves, the synergies of crowdsource learning would have a better chance to arise as the intimidation factor would be diminshed.

As their comfort level rose with deeper familiarity, newbs could transition to the intermediate level of mixing it up with more advanced players.

As well, there could be some experienced players that under this context, and structure, would be more inclined to mentor newbs now and then. Not so far fetched. I knew a great WZ player who did this for years.
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I agree mostly, but really, all it takes is practice and a willingness to learn - it is not something that should take years to become competitive. I started playing MP in November last year - I did play on the PS1 when it came out - 14 years ago? But only went thru the campaign - then a few years later downloaded and did the campaign again.

For some reason I decided to try again and this time got right into MP, after a few weeks of getting owned I started to get it, then I started to love the game and want to just learn and learn. Now after a few months, I can mix it up pretty well - I am not the best by any means, but I can hold my own in an MP game - this is NTW btw, but I am sure if I had the inclination I could do the same with low oil, it just requires a willingness to learn, really - if the person doesn't have that, doesn't like the game enough to bother learning, well it won't matter what you do I'm thinking.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 07 Mar 2013, 05:21

Reg312 wrote:@vexed brazilian downloads? :roll: (may be add captcha on next version and see what happen)
is any other way to estimate number of players and their interest?
Also there is no problem with graphics, campaign, scripting system, why improve this if no one complain? :ninja:
Count of online players should be directly relevant to total count of players.
Majority of players never visit forums. Many players also have language problems.
I am not sure why you think we have bots that are downloading the game, and no, we can't add captcha to the SF link, that wouldn't really make sense. :hmm:

I think that language translation problems are more prevalent as can be seen by your statements.
When I am talking about complaining, I am not talking about actual game related issues (bugs). I was speaking about the attitude that some people think that _insert issue here_ is actually very important, when in reality, most people don't really care. Again, I was NOT talking about actual bugs!

Lots of people have complained about lack of eye candy, and wanting new campaigns for a very, very long time. In order to try to advance the project, the only logical way to help people with campaigns is to use a better script system. In this case, JS was chosen because... well, Per wanted it, and nobody else had a working alternative ready, so there you go. WZscript is pretty difficult and unforgiving. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
vexed wrote: you would think that people would want to voice their opinion, but, right now, we have the same regulars doing the complaining all the time
Ok i stop complaining, you devs never listen :ninja: even cannot belive in lag, which was noticed by many players in lobby :augh:
:kez_15:
Some people (yes, that includes you) noticed a problem, and posted about it, so I went ahead and made test builds. Now, if "the devs never listen" then why did we make test builds ?
These things take time, sometimes, much longer than we would want, so sorry, but RL comes first before anything related to WZ comes into play. This is a hobby, not a job, and after working 12-14 hours or more sometimes, it just isn't worth it to visit the forums and catch up on everything. There isn't really anything I can do about that, unless everyone wants to hire a full time programmer, that isn't going to change.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Iluvalar » 07 Mar 2013, 06:54

Our main problem is that our tech tree shape make it 2^n complex. Each time we add a new part, it's incredibly more complex to understand and even worst to balance properly. Honestly, we are stuck here. If any of you care about the futur of the game and adding new stuff (either structures, propulsion, weapons, bodies even if it's just for a mod), then we gonna need to talk about reforming that tech tree into something coherent and predictable.
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