Starting power level amount

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vexed
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Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 28 Feb 2013, 05:27

Just what is the main reason people play high oil maps ?
Is it that the starting energy amount is too low, even when set to high power levels ? :hmm:
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by NoQ » 28 Feb 2013, 06:01

Setting high power levels doesn't affect starting energy.

I believe all we need is a button for 10x output from derricks, or, alternatively, a button for unlimited power.

But there's other thing that can't be solved: why do people play flat maps?

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by stiv » 28 Feb 2013, 07:23

If I had to guess, the reason they play flat, high-oil maps is because it is simpler. No need to fight over resources, or deal with terrain. Less complicated and more chess-like than WZ-ish.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Reg312 » 28 Feb 2013, 10:39

oh, finally.
@vexed see viewtopic.php?f=43&t=10697
opened very similar topic just week ago :P

Classic Low-oil games is unfriendly to beginners (in comparison to high-oil games)
it is plain fact.

Note: Lobby players mostly do not visit forums. Only few of them are here. You cannot hear opinion of real players here.

@NoQ: flat maps is only way to play high oil.
i cannot imagine how 10 players (each with 130 tanks and hundred of defenses) how they can fight on narrow maps??
narrow non-flat map is just unplayable if you play high-oil.

i noticed some low-oil players simply have slow PC, so they just cannot play high-oil.
I think we have ~90% high-oil players.


here is some reasons why high-oil:
- grand battles. people like grand battles.
- team-play. 5x5 low-oil game is quite equal to 1x1 on high oil.
- massive using of various tech. in low-oil many games ends with twin mg.
- artillery playable only on high-oil.
- defensive style playable on high oil. On low-oil defensive tactic is unplayable mostly.
- more intuitive play. You just build base and make armies and fight. At low-oil your first move is truck race for oil.
<.............>


NoQ wrote: I believe all we need is a button for 10x output from derricks, or, alternatively, a button for unlimited power.
x10 button means x10 high oil games. because generator limit stays the same.
/me votes to set default generator limit to 3.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Feb 2013, 12:22

.

The different map types serve the gaming experience prefs of the games different audience segments, as detailed above ("real" players and the rest)- which are the same as they were 14 years ago on MPlayer.

With that elucidation, to what end now ?

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 28 Feb 2013, 18:39

I find low oil games frustrating, most times I have played it has just been a rush to get the most derrics and then produce the most units and whomever does normally wins. I have rarely seen the tech go past lancers in a low oil game, however it is common to see artillery, scourge and even at times archangels in a high oil game.

With flat maps it seems easier to work as team in MP, you can also react quicker to events happening elsewhere on the map - ie say if one of your team mates is getting gangbanged you have to time to get to him without terrain or a maze of canyons blocking you. Even then there are a few NTW maps with a bit of terrain; the good ones use the terrain to enhance combat not stifle it.

The main thing for me, as Reg was saying is "massive using of various tech", you get to really try things out in a combat environment - what units work against what, same with defenses.

I really hope the devs play these high oil type games as it really shows what is happening in virtually every facit of wz gameplay.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 28 Feb 2013, 19:39

the starting energy amount and how many oil wells on the level tell you how fast a game will last
if you allow us to enter a value for the starting amount I think people will play other maps besides those horrible flat high oil maps
NTW should be banned from lobby server!

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Feb 2013, 23:28

.

Still trying to understand the end goal here.

Let me posit this.

Is the goal to explore a means, a start of game option, that would give NTW power levels to maps originally desigined as low oil and with terrain the oposite of flat ?

It's been my contention for years that within a couple months of WZ's retail release in April of '99, mappers and MPers have adapted to the game's shortcomings and that has not much changed in 14 years.

Agreeing on the identfication of those shortcomings, how to address them and in what priority, is the trifecta of challenges vs the inertia of the status quo.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 01 Mar 2013, 03:41

Originway wrote:NTW should be banned from lobby server!
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 01 Mar 2013, 04:41

I am trying to figure out why people play those type of maps, knowing that they will have a adverse playing experience with them because with those type of maps, things can get really, really slow.

I was thinking that they are dead easy to make, and don't really offer anything of value that I can see.
Reg312 wrote:oh, finally.
@vexed
opened very similar topic just week ago :P
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Erm...well, I don't have time to look at many posts, I usually only look at ones that I have been made aware of. :stressed:
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 01 Mar 2013, 15:07

vexed wrote: I was thinking that they are dead easy to make, and don't really offer anything of value that I can see.
Dunno, I for one, like flat maps... and you know there are features in the end... many hardpoints, walls and other things hahahah - I am not there for pretty scenery, I am there to wage war! And a flat map lets you do this with the less fuss.

But even then if I found that more people were playing featured maps I would probably play them, but they don't... period. If I host say a featured map and there are others hosting NTW, the NTW will fill up faster and with better players. It takes longer to get a game going with other map types... even NTW maps with terrain features.

Just curious, have you played high oil NTW maps before?
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 02 Mar 2013, 10:54

Rommel wrote:Just curious, have you played high oil NTW maps before?
Hope you don't mind me butting in, but personally, a long time ago, I played this custom map on C&C Generals: Zero Hour that featured gameplay that I believe would probably be the closest thing to a NTW-styled Warzone 2100 match since the map itself was just a simple flat map with a single chokepoint in-between the 2 players, and there was a script running that would grant players infinite money. While I did personally get a laugh out of it, I recognized that such a map would be really unbalanced for the gameplay that's intended for the game. :lol2:

Anticipating that there would be lots of units in-play due to the infinite money scripting, and that range and splash damage would be invaluable in such a crowded situation, I picked the Chinese Nuke General as my faction, built endless amounts of bulldozers to construct endless amounts of factories, and until I could tech up to and mass-produce infinite Inferno Cannons (well-known for their range, surprisingly good mobility for an artillery unit, and ability to create area-denying firestorms) and some Nuke MiGs (which dealt lethal amounts of splash damage that could devastate even Overlord Tanks, the game's heaviest units), had my barracks produce endless amounts of Tank Hunter infantry, and my factories produce endless amounts of basic Battlemaster Tanks, Dragon Tanks, and Gattling Tanks, all to keep my opponent busy. My opponent, meanwhile, tried to build enough Nuclear Silos to completely wipe out my half of the map, as well as enough defenses to stave off an early-game rush. Needless to say, my endless waves of Inferno Cannons, supported by Nuclear MiGs and a number of support powers that dealt collateral damage, such as Nuclear Bombers and Artillery Strikes, broke through my opponent's defensive lines and threatened to overrun my opponent's Nuke Silos before they had the chance to wipe me out. (My opponent also tried to sneak in a Black Lotus hero unit, though whatever micromanagement feats that could be accomplished by that unit would pale in comparison to my macromanagement skills at the time.) My opponent decided to surrender afterwards.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Iluvalar » 03 Mar 2013, 17:01

As a experimenting modder I recorder 3 different reason why players play high oil :

1- Above all, a flawed conception that more power is better. They fail to grasp (at least inconsciously) that this hold true only inside a given game and that this doesn't apply to metagaming. They might even find it more rewarding to conquer a country with 40 oils than one with 6 oils. You probably think it's non-sens and that a game is a game but, oh well, you'd be surprised. :)

2- An other totally wrong conception : They might feel like controlling hundred of units make them more skillful or increase their freedom. While most of us know that we struggle to really control 3 groups wisely at once and that the difference between 3 and 30 vipers from gameplay perspective are neglectable.

3- Proportion of research : The research is less expensive in high oil. That's a real effect.

4- The flooding of options make it more noob friendly. You don't have to decide how much you need to spend on research nor how much you spend on units. Unless you are very skillful and manage to use all the power, you just need to do all you can.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Per » 03 Mar 2013, 17:26

I think many games have the same "high oil" problem. Supreme Commander had a "Nothing but time" mod which was very popular, and did basically the same thing. I think it comes down to some people wanting to play the game just to pass some time with as little challenge or thinking as possible. There is probably nothing we can do to "fix" that.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Reg312 » 03 Mar 2013, 17:44

in "cossacks - art of war" was same issue with high oil games (called "millions")

Per wrote:There is probably nothing we can do to "fix" that.
at least you (devs) asking this question, you thinking about it and it is ok for now :)
i proposed some stuff here viewtopic.php?f=43&t=10697#p118750

"high oil games" cannot be "fixed", but low-oil gameplay can be made more friendly to beginners. why not? why why why?

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