Campaing balance changes

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alfred007
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Campaing balance changes

Post by alfred007 » 12 Oct 2021, 13:16

Version 4.2.0-beta1 is released and the stable release 4.2.0 will follow soonish. With this release, the balance changes we were working on since mid-2018 are finished and implemented. Here is the detailed changelog that shows all changes of version 4.2.0 in comparison with version 4.0.1.
Changelog campaign balance 4.0.1 to 4.2.0.txt
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Ant1989
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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by Ant1989 » 12 Oct 2021, 17:28

I just ask one thing, during gamma 5, nexus should slow down the absorption of your things with each of the researches. during my recent playthrough of the insane difficulty, I barely noticed any slowdown after I completed the first research.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by nick87720z » 12 Oct 2021, 21:14

It's surprise to see scavanger flamer with machinegun range.
Comparison using base weapons stats:
shortRange (mobile / static): mg1 or twin mg - 512 / 608, hmg - 640 / 704, BabaFlame: 608.

I would propose, if in origin their mg had range like for T2 assault gun or cannon, than their flamers could have range like for inferno as T2 flamer variant.

Yet about plasma launcher. It's behavior is closer to howitzers, and it looks more like T3 howitzer variant - same stats as groundshaker, yet with slightly higher damage. It also needs some splash radius, though like damage lower than for plasma cannon (may be equal to one for ground shaker).

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by alfred007 » 14 Oct 2021, 00:00

nick87720z wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 21:14
I would propose, if in origin their mg had range like for T2 assault gun or cannon, than their flamers could have range like for inferno as T2 flamer variant.
The reason for the flamer range is to make them a real threat. If their range is shorter than the range of the MG/Twin MG you can park a tank out of the flamer tower range and drink a cup of coffee while you wait that the MG kills the flamer tower. Now you have to work for the victory.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by alfred007 » 14 Oct 2021, 00:14

Ant1989 wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 17:28
I just ask one thing, during gamma 5, nexus should slow down the absorption of your things with each of the researches. during my recent playthrough of the insane difficulty, I barely noticed any slowdown after I completed the first research.
No, the chance to absorb something remains the same. The benefits for the artifacts are:
MK1: Hero and Special units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK2: Factories, Elite, and Veteran units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK3: Absorption ends

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by Ant1989 » 14 Oct 2021, 01:04

alfred007 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 00:14
Ant1989 wrote:
12 Oct 2021, 17:28
I just ask one thing, during gamma 5, nexus should slow down the absorption of your things with each of the researches. during my recent playthrough of the insane difficulty, I barely noticed any slowdown after I completed the first research.
No, the chance to absorb something remains the same. The benefits for the artifacts are:
MK1: Hero and Special units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK2: Factories, Elite, and Veteran units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK3: Absorption ends
Thing is, this helps nothing for me to fight the relentless incoming waves of nexus tanks. I mean, yeah, I guess you gonna have a few hero pilots from the last mission, but they are just a few, and you'd have to know you should recycle them by the beginning to the stage, even on normal and easy, you are asking too much from first-time players. And there's no hint of what each research does, so if you are unaware, you gonna avoid making units until the absorption stops, and by then you gonna be until the neck with nexus tanks. If the absorption slows down with each research, it becomes more intuitive.

By the way, are you sure nexus towers work? Even on insane there was no case of a unit being absorbed by them.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 14 Oct 2021, 02:38

alfred007 wrote:No, the chance to absorb something remains the same. The benefits for the artifacts are:
MK1: Hero and Special units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK2: Factories, Elite, and Veteran units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK3: Absorption ends
In addition to all that, the chance of a hack attempt failing does increase with each upgrade. Starting at a base 30%, then 55% for Mk1, 80% for Mk2, and then 100% safety for Mk3. Hack attempts are every 8 seconds on Easy and Normal and every 5 seconds on Hard and Insane. Luck is unsurprisingly still a major factor in this mission so it could be a walk in the breeze or pure pandemonium. Some might not make it to the first upgrade in the worst case scenario (which happened to me on my last Insane playthrough lol).

By the way, are you sure nexus towers work? Even on insane there was no case of a unit being absorbed by them.
Nexus Link turrets have always been terrible at absorbing things in campaign. They were buffed in the 4.2.0-beta1 release with the Gamma camBalance update to match the stats of the multiplayer variant so they are pretty dangerous now.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by nick87720z » 14 Oct 2021, 12:33

alfred007 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 00:14
No, the chance to absorb something remains the same. The benefits for the artifacts are:
MK1: Hero and Special units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK2: Factories, Elite, and Veteran units don't get absorbed anymore, the chance to absorb a truck is decreased
MK3: Absorption ends
Problem is that there's no way to discover this without blind try against all logic, while logic persist to avoid production for anything but trucks, to support unmanned defenses, which don't waste skilled operators. I remember serious of mk1..mk3 researches (probably, access codes for missile silos in gamma7) - they had nature research notes for each mk stage, not just first. This way could be used to make more useful notes for antivirus stages, describing what they give.
There also could be voice advices either from advisor AI or just unresting people:
- mk1: We found way to resist nexus intruder program in our systems. We are ready to test it on vehicles, but only military specialists are able to use it at full potential.
- mk2: We have enough automation for nexus intrusion block system, ready for use in factories and by pilots with at least veteral skill.
- mk3: blahblahblah

Well, of course, if it were possible to make same voices again, as those we already have.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by nick87720z » 14 Oct 2021, 13:04

alfred007 wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 00:00
The reason for the flamer range is to make them a real threat. If their range is shorter than the range of the MG/Twin MG you can park a tank out of the flamer tower range and drink a cup of coffee while you wait that the MG kills the flamer tower. Now you have to work for the victory.
Is not it wrong flamer use?
In all uses I have seen in both campaign and multiplayer their role was to keep enemy at distance, to not let them get too close, to not bypass defenses, as it's possible in scav outpost at their first derick (second for you). While at distance - all other ranged defenses should do their work. And current misuse is still not big problem - I could just make swarm of repair tanks, surrounding 1 or 2 units, selected for experience collection (I usually use 4, but I guess, keeping at least 8 in one place should make it hard to burn at least for single flamer). Even if they still need to eventually retreat out of range for repair, this should be still not problem. May be if base perimeter was made completely from mg & cannon towers, this would make experience collection with single unit really impossible (few units would barely get to own range before retreating, good if not destroyed), making rush the only way to breach this. However, total experience would still grow better - it's just too hard to use single 16-20 unit group under single commander anywhere but in wide open areas, as in narrow passages they make a mess. Also I don't thinks, that trying to make a hero from begining (as I could once in alpha1 by keeping single tank catching all assaults, reproducing it when becomes too damaged, while 2nd replaces it util 1st returns.

For such role there must be new weapon - why not just add incendiarry cannons?
Must be so elementary for scavangers to just throw burning fuel canisters (really molotov cans, haha).
btw..... how about babas with molotovs :wink: though could be flamers too, who could even explode themselves when shot XD

++ Finally my dream about deversly armed scav infantry is here, though campaign is rather last thing, I would expect to get this :)

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 15 Oct 2021, 23:21

I added research messages that will show up in the Intel menu for all the Nexus Resistance Circuits upgrades for 4.2.0-beta2.

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Re: Campaing balance changes

Post by nick87720z » 22 Oct 2021, 20:52

I have first attempt at insane, ending with alpha06 start - stoped at guarding entrance to my half, in order to try different walkthrough. There are some tricks to make it effectively.
- First scav groups (infantry only) are easy to dispatch with just 4 tanks with to now damage - using 1 as bait, hiding in side terrain so, that scavs can see it but can't shoot without getting utterly close, with other 3 machines shooting and rolling over them without any resistance. Could be harder to exploit if AI could handle events when target becomes unreachable for weapon.
- First objective here is to get repair turret. All 4 tanks go straight to base with last derick, sneak behind (posible to not even get red units health), knock it out and retreat in reverse sneaking route to not have loses. Barell is used to get lab ready as soon as artifact is grabed, yet remaining energy is used to get 5th tank at base, shooting attackers through buildings by being manually kept in move; may be their holdposition could have effect of non-interrupted patrol, while firing everything in range. Also that base could get light fix for vulnerability at the back by adding at least 1 tower behind, though it's already really hard without obtaining repair turret first. :)
- One approach, most useful at insane enemy production speed - I keep as much as possible enemy factories working, keeping as final structures instead of towers to both use remaining time for oil and get reach source of experience (managed to get nearly 9 units at '|>>>' level with total 13 units at the end of alpha04 (others were '>>>' with 2 '|>>' or so.
At alpha02 first objective was to get generator module, so I rushed straight to it just after securing exit (but ignoring base right at exit), with truck and second group guarding entrance to secured zone instead of towers for experience too. I with could keep its factory intact if only knew, how to place few units behind 4th derick to shoot produced units, but not factory. Kept two other factories however, with attack group taking place at entrance to base with twin mg.
- Power module is researched and added as soon as possible - mission doesn't end while enemy factories work. Keeping upgraded generator before finish, than replacing with regular one, which is enough to produce many times more power than cost of generator, using additional 6+ minutes (also time to research and upgrade).

Others is not tricks, just more attempts to keep factories.
Factory at alpha03 base is kept until just enough time left to research HMG (even enough to make a run at top).
At alpha04 hidden factory at entrance to lab may be kept for experience.
Perhaps will try first naive way at alpha05, moving right at NP direction, provoking all to attack, to get as much as ossible experience thanks to enemy LZ at Insane. =)
(of course, I'm not so insane yet to do it at speed higher than 0.33).

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