Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

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alfred007
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by alfred007 »

By the time you get the better AT rockets and AA you have no time to build the defences at your leisure.
Sorry, but, are you serious? Even with Insane difficulty, I had the time to spend at least 5 minutes before I started the transporter to an away mission to build defenses. With Hard difficulty, you have more time and more power.
Speaking of which, I would suggest to shift the 2nd AA gun tech reveal earlier a bit. When you get the basic 1st AA at the beginning you have only it for quite some time, during a lot of missions (and that's why the bulk of AA, if not all the AA, at the Beta base was the basic one in my save). Then you get 2nd tier AA gun and I started to replace the obsolete older AA vehicles with it but that wasn't needed really since the very next (I think so) mission gave me the 3rd AA gun tech. So there is no point of building 2nd tier AA defences and vehicles, you can just wait a bit for the 3rd tier. The natural suggestion is to give player the 2nd AA tech earlier (I suppose you have only the 1st tier for around 5 missions or even more).
This is a good idea. Berserk Cyborg and I are already discussing it. Giving Cyclone earlier would make it to easy to fight the Collective Vtols in Beta 5 in my eyes but we will move Whirlwind to a later level.
'Nearly no defences' - I learned the hard way that (I recall) around 15 Lancer hardpoints, around 5 Ripple Rockets, several MG bunkers, several Howitzer emplacements and I think 7-9 AA pits + around 5 AA vehicles sitting in the base are apparently count as 'nearly no defences' on Hard (I mentioned above why they were outdated).
I have to admit that "nearly no defenses" is not correct. But 3 Hurricane Sites at each oil derrick are not even close enough to hold back any Vtols that spawn every 30 seconds. You have about 10-15 Lancer looking north at your base, 4 or 5 RR batteries, and about 5 Howitzer emplacements. Against 18-25 of the strongest units the Collective has, coming from the north and the southwest several times. And no trucks to rebuild them. All Lancer you built at the western edge of your base are useless. No ground units are coming from the west.
As a comparison what I built with Insane difficulty with less time for every level than you had to survive this level: 40 Howitzer emplacements at the middle oil derrick, 4 Tank Killer Hardpoints and 4 Tank Killer emplacements at the spawning points in the north and the west, 30 Ripple Rocket batteries in the valley northwest of the LZ, 40 Whirlwind AA Sites around the Howitzer emplacements in the middle of the map, and one Whirlwind AA site every second tile on the hills around my base. Together with 30 Tank Killer Vtols that are circling at the tank spawn points. This is possible with Insane difficulty. So, please, don't tell me you don't have enough time to build some defenses.
The problem I see here that a new player will have no idea that leaving the valley to the West triggers the attack of doom
Of course, he can't know if he's new. But failing several times with leaving the valley early should make him think about a different strategy.
Why you suggest building the Research? The valley is very narrow to have this luxury and the oil is too precious while the enemy production isn't dealt with yet, while the two new available technlogies don't seem too tempting to research right away.
Because you need every upgrade you can get. All the things I mentioned are fitting in the valley. Maybe except the Command Relay Center but you will need one if you want to build commanders.
By the way, what triggers the attack of doom?
Either leaving the valley west or leaving the valley north or after 20 minutes with Normal difficulty. 17 minutes with Hard, 14 with Insane difficulty.

If you are still struggling with Gamma 01 I want to repeat my invitation to the Discord server. I'm a moderator there and could give you the streamer role so that you could stream the game via Discord and I could watch you and give you some live tips in the Discord chat. Either typed or in voice chat.
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Berserk Cyborg
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by Berserk Cyborg »

The original balance is lost to source changes over the years... hence why the never touched stats were really bad by the time 3.2.0 came out. It wouldn't be worth the effort unfortunately.

A Research Lab is important in Gamma 1 since you are automatically given the Hellstorm howitzer and another Machinegun damage upgrade at the start.

Whirlwind will now become an artifact from a Whirlwind site on Beta 8 (the same mission you get the Hyper Velocity Cannon from). I guess as an added bonus the Cyclone site is cheaper in power by 25 points so it helps conserve some power over those missions.
There are various approaches. You can farm experience (like me), or you can create 1-5 Hero commanders and don't care too much about your units (like Berserk Cyborg).
I just use one Hero Commander and a Hero Sensor and it's good enough for Insane difficulty. While I do care about my units I'm not going to save every one of them as I rarely ever find myself losing such high experience units to begin with. On my last playthrough of Beta-end my Hero sensor that I had since Alpha 3 died valiantly defending the South-East spawn on Beta-end next to his Pepperpot battle buddies and I didn't notice that for about 7 minutes. It adds to realism of events.
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by SneaksieRUS »

alfred007 wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 04:13 Sorry, but, are you serious? Even with Insane difficulty, I had the time to spend at least 5 minutes before I started the transporter to an away mission to build defenses. With Hard difficulty, you have more time and more power.
I have to admit that "nearly no defenses" is not correct. But 3 Hurricane Sites at each oil derrick are not even close enough to hold back any Vtols that spawn every 30 seconds. You have about 10-15 Lancer looking north at your base, 4 or 5 RR batteries, and about 5 Howitzer emplacements. Against 18-25 of the strongest units the Collective has, coming from the north and the southwest several times. And no trucks to rebuild them. All Lancer you built at the western edge of your base are useless. No ground units are coming from the west.
As a comparison what I built with Insane difficulty with less time for every level than you had to survive this level: 40 Howitzer emplacements at the middle oil derrick, 4 Tank Killer Hardpoints and 4 Tank Killer emplacements at the spawning points in the north and the west, 30 Ripple Rocket batteries in the valley northwest of the LZ, 40 Whirlwind AA Sites around the Howitzer emplacements in the middle of the map, and one Whirlwind AA site every second tile on the hills around my base. Together with 30 Tank Killer Vtols that are circling at the tank spawn points. This is possible with Insane difficulty. So, please, don't tell me you don't have enough time to build some defenses.
That's just crazy amount of defences you're speaking of, I wouldn't even think about building that much. I guess that one giant base you built on the whole map can sustain the attacks indefinitely. I'm not saying that something is impossible - you did win on Insane multiple times I suppose, I'm saying that what you guys do is very different to what a regular player would even think about or find interesting to try. Building defences on every other tile sounds like a tedious work and not a game at all - but to each his own, whatever you like to do. Please note that you're calling some Lancers useless because no units will come from there - once again you require the knowledge what and where will happen exactly... but we already discussed it above.
By the way, what triggers the attack of doom?
Either leaving the valley west or leaving the valley north or after 20 minutes with Normal difficulty. 17 minutes with Hard, 14 with Insane difficulty.
Thanks, that info will be useful. So the player should build up at least for 15 minutes even on Hard. Maybe it will be enough to build a suicide squad of buster VTOLs and then strike directly at the production.
If you are still struggling with Gamma 01 I want to repeat my invitation to the Discord server. I'm a moderator there and could give you the streamer role so that you could stream the game via Discord and I could watch you and give you some live tips in the Discord chat. Either typed or in voice chat.
Thank you. I wanted to wait till the next public release (you said Nexus won't have the armor upgrades as quickly as in the current version) but maybe I'll try G1 sooner in the current version (and build up for 15 mins aiming for VTOLs buster squad).
Berserk Cyborg wrote: 15 Jan 2022, 07:18 A Research Lab is important in Gamma 1 since you are automatically given the Hellstorm howitzer and another Machinegun damage upgrade at the start.
It would be practical to either invest into howitzers or VTOLs - not enough time to do both I guess, but the MG upgrade sounds handy against the cyborgs.
Whirlwind will now become an artifact from a Whirlwind site on Beta 8 (the same mission you get the Hyper Velocity Cannon from). I guess as an added bonus the Cyclone site is cheaper in power by 25 points so it helps conserve some power over those missions.
That's good to hear.
While I do care about my units I'm not going to save every one of them as I rarely ever find myself losing such high experience units to begin with. On my last playthrough of Beta-end my Hero sensor that I had since Alpha 3 died valiantly defending the South-East spawn on Beta-end next to his Pepperpot battle buddies and I didn't notice that for about 7 minutes. It adds to realism of events.
+1, I agree.
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alfred007
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by alfred007 »

I'm saying that what you guys do is very different to what a regular player would even think about or find interesting to try.
All these defenses are not necessary with Easy or Normal difficulty, so a "regular player" is not forced to do it. Insane difficulty is made for very experienced players and includes challenges that force them to rethink and change their usual strategies and tactics.
Please note that you're calling some Lancers useless because no units will come from there - once again you require the knowledge what and where will happen exactly
You said that you have played the level before so I have assumed that you know what is coming and from where it's coming.
mrcrake
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by mrcrake »

Saw this topic through Google, I've not really had much trouble on hard campaign so far, but Gamma 1 is a huuuuuuuuge spike. That said, I've gone through most of the game just using 5 commanders at the front to soak up damage (each having almost 7,000hp) and 30+ mortar tanks at the back, then 10+ trucks just building up repair stations and bunkers / more artillery in the rear.

The enemies in Gamma 1 do an absolute truckload of damage, even the cyborgs, and they seem to self-heal.
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Re: Campaign difficulty spikes (version 4.2.0+)

Post by Bethrezen »

Not sure why you are having such issues with gamma 1 because that mission is actually pretty straight forward even on insane now admittedly its been a while since I last tested a build of warzone since I’m still waiting on the xp compatibility problem to be resolved which prevents me from running warzone so things could have changed some what since then.

But in any event first and for most you need to be using the heaviest units you can make so you want to be using tracks and tiger bodies this will make your units extremely hard to kill so long as they are supported by repair bays and mobile repair units.

Additionally your units need to be as experienced as possible so ideally by Gamma 1 you should have several hero level units and these should be attached to a hero level commander and when these units are supported by repair bays and mobile repair units they are almost indestructible because they are so heavily armoured.

Additionally you need to be using counter battery sensors with ripple rockets so that you can take out those angel batteries or you are going to get crushed, also don’t use ripple rocket turrets or they will get killed by nexus as he has counter battery sensors as well so instead use tracked tiger body mobile ripple rockets as these are less susceptible to nexus counter battery fire and can be supported by repair bays and mobile repair units and if these units are experienced they will be tougher to kill and more powerful also make sure nexus artillery fires first so that you counter fire against it as this will give you the advantage you should also keep your artillery units behind the mountains as this will absorb some of the return fire and once you counter strike nexus artillery and then nexus tries to counter strike your artillery.

Also don’t fall for nexus ploy of trying to draw you out of your LZ stay put until you can build up your strength enough to crush nexus, once you have taken out nexus angel batteries build a mobile sensor and attach your mobile ripple units make sure the sensor unit is supported by say 4 mobile repair units so it doesn’t get killed and then and move the sensor forwards in formation with the mobile repair units and let your ripple units start to wipe out nexus forces because cyborgs and hover units are weak against artillery although keep your other units at your LZ they aren’t needed until you are ready to assault nexus base

You also need to watch out for nexus vtols which can be a pain in the ass but they can be dealt with if you have sufficient AAA so they are more of an irritation than a real threat.

Once you have taken out nexus initial force with your ripple rockets fall back and build a sensor tower at the entrance to your LZ so that your ripple rocket units can see and attack any nexus units that get to close this should keep nexus units at bay and give your peace and quiet long enough to build your base and bring in reinforcements once you have a foot hold established and your LZ is well protected you can go north and take out the nexus air fields which will stop nexus harassing you with vtols it will also give you access to some more oil wells you can then set up defences and build your own air field where nexus had his and now you can turn the tables and start using bunker buster vtols to take down nexus turrets and sensors so your tanks can get close enough to take out nexus base because with out sensors nexus artillery if its isn’t already dead from your counter strikes will be neutered as it can’t attack what it can’t see which will stop you getting pulverise before you even get close to nexus base.

additionally for your vtols I would recommend using the project heavy bodies while the collective tiger bodies are more heavily armoured the project heavy bodies have a bigger and better engine so your vtols will be faster and less likely to get shot down by nexus AAA

hope this helps

as for the new paradigm units getting stuck in alpha there isn't much that can be done about this the A* movement algorithm is garbage and needs replacing with a more modern movement algorithm like free flow and has already been said people have made attempts to deal with this before to no avail and no matter what you do it always fails at some point but warzone isn't the only RTS game to suffer from this game like C&C and DOW also have this problem usually they try to deal with this by making units take an alternative route to the specified destination if they cant get past but this can actually be even more annoying and can result in your units going in the opposite direction to the one you told them to go as they try to fine a alternative route to the specified destination
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