Scouting in early game

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crab_
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Scouting in early game

Post by crab_ » 05 Aug 2013, 17:25

Hello.
I'm continuing bombard you with suggestions :)

Scouting in early game
Sensor must be aviable from start (without research) and price and build time of sensor unit should be reduced.

I dont see any problems which can be caused by this change. May be sensors with low price and build time can be used as meat units in late high-oil games, not sure.
Iluvalar, do you think, may be this early sensors can solve problem with increased randomness due to removed unit preview?



Russian version for russian forum members:
Разведка в ранней игре.
В игре не хватает нормального разведчика для лоу-ойл игр.
Предлагаю сделать так, чтобы сенсор не требовал исследования. Также понизить стоимость и время производства для сенсора.
Единственная проблема, которая может быть, это то что сенсора будут использовать как дешевые "мясные" юниты для вариантов "спам-атаки" (например, чтобы отвлекать огонь артиллерии)
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by NoQ » 05 Aug 2013, 19:08

So how about a scout chopper that is available from start, is produced at hq, costs $50, is killed with three tmg shots, has sight range slightly more than an mg tower weapon range, and cannot target artillery?

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by crab_ » 05 Aug 2013, 19:44

NoQ wrote:So how about a scout chopper that is available from start, is produced at hq, costs $50, is killed with three tmg shots, has sight range slightly more than an mg tower weapon range, and cannot target artillery?
Chopper? flying unit from game start and HQ as factory?

I think flying units from start is not good. Dunno why.
You can prevent ground sensors from viewing your base, but flying chopper can view your base from plato.
Machinegun have very short range, your enemies will be see enemy base all time.

Next, if you have shopper propulsion, why not have a chopper-mg unit?
I think my solution with sensors better :)
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Iluvalar » 05 Aug 2013, 19:46

to crab :

No, It wouldn't really help, the sensor don't have much more sight of range than machine guns. Unless we do major changes in that as well. then see below ↓
NoQ wrote:So how about a scout chopper that is available from start, is produced at hq, costs $50, is killed with three tmg shots, has sight range slightly more than an mg tower weapon range, and cannot target artillery?
I fail to see how microing little choppers around instead of playing the main game would be fun...
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by NoQ » 05 Aug 2013, 20:10

You can prevent ground sensors from viewing your base, but flying chopper can view your base from plato.
No,because, as i specially said, it sees you => you can shoot it.
I fail to see how microing little choppers around instead of playing the main game would be fun...
Waiting for 30 seconds for every building to complete without having anything to do at all is much less fun.
Also, a dedicated scout is much more sensible then a starcraft-like worker scout.
Next, if you have shopper propulsion, why not have a chopper-mg unit?
Because we don't set designable bit.

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by crab_ » 05 Aug 2013, 20:29

NoQ wrote:
You can prevent ground sensors from viewing your base, but flying chopper can view your base from plato.
No,because, as i specially said, it sees you => you can shoot it.
i do not see where you said it?
You said scout have range as MG tower have.
MG tower have range of HMG turret, so its 1 or 2 tile greater than range of Machinegun
NoQ wrote:
Next, if you have chopper propulsion, why not have a chopper-mg unit?
Because we don't set designable bit.
i think this is not follow logic of warzone2100. In WZ if you researched vtol then you can design any vtol unit :)
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Iluvalar » 05 Aug 2013, 20:39

NoQ wrote:[
I fail to see how microing little choppers around instead of playing the main game would be fun...
Waiting for 30 seconds for every building to complete without having anything to do at all is much less fun.
First, if you have an HQ, it's already down to 20 seconds. Next, once you'll reach that base. It will be boring at that time. There will be factories, research lab and some trucks around. It's too late to see the exact opening, and too fast to see what units are getting produced. I guess, those choppers would become useful around 7:00 - 8:00 . At this point you can get busy doing something else, you don't just wait for a building to build 30 seconds.
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by _scavfan_ » 05 Aug 2013, 21:03

Iluvalar wrote: I guess, those choppers would become useful around 7:00 - 8:00 . At this point you can get busy doing something else
While waiting you can manufacture standard sensor unit.
Or current sensor turret is... too expensive? :hmm:

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Rman Virgil » 05 Aug 2013, 21:06

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A start of game scout chopper in principle is basically an intel gathering UAV which is already stock 21st century military equip for dispelling fog of war and could serve as a legit and common sensical replacement for the unit preview screen, imho. Microing them would be exciting, I think. Worth taking out of the realm of thought experiment and actually playtesting. If they could also disperse "Smart Motes".......... oops, that may be way too 21st century warfare for WZ 2100. :lol2: Which begs the question, can we assume the military of 87 years in the future, with Borg soldiers, Plasma Canons, Nexus Capture turrets & the like, to be less able and less smart than what we are right now, military tac and strat wise ? :hmm:

BTW..... anyone can go on Amazon dot com right now and order one of these intel gathering drone choppers for a couple hundred bucks. :3 Don't need to be able to afford or deploy or pilot a Harrier jet. Game logic that requires a pre-frontal lobotomy is just not right. ;)
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by NoQ » 06 Aug 2013, 06:10

In WZ if you researched vtol then you can design any vtol unit
Think of transports.
Next, if you have shopper propulsion, why not have a chopper-mg unit?
Let's think that chopper uses some different technology. Something too weak to carry a real tank body. Or the body is too small to carry a machinegun. Remember the scale? Afaik, a human is hardly as tall as a tank's wheel. The machineguns we're seeing are really huge. The scout chopper would probably be much smaller (Rman Virgil? Help me on that one?)
i do not see where you said it?
You said scout have range as MG tower have.
MG tower have range of HMG turret, so its 1 or 2 tile greater than range of Machinegun
Well yeah. With this you can avoid your base being looked at by simply placing a few mg towers, or with just a few mg tanks around.
I think my solution with sensors better
Sensors, on the other hand, would be too easy to knock out. They will be the first thing to die when the first tank comes out. Choppers, on the other hand, would live longer and require some more special treatment to remove (even though it's still easy, it can be disruptive). Also, we can't make sensor tank much cheaper than viper x wheels.
First, if you have an HQ, it's already down to 20 seconds.
Well, first of all, we shall hope that early HQ openings become useful.
Next, once you'll reach that base. It will be boring at that time. There will be factories, research lab and some trucks around. It's too late to see the exact opening, and too fast to see what units are getting produced.
By counting labs and trucks you can understand quite a lot. I don't think of it as too fast; since we're fast, we can just wait and see what comes out. We can also scout which derricks were taken.

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by crab_ » 06 Aug 2013, 15:11

So We dont have consensus.
Does it mean what dev-team cannot do anything without consensus?
No consensus == do nothing?

I think some 'regulations' required, is it? 'regulations' of decision-making.
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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Aug 2013, 15:29

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Next, if you have shopper propulsion, why not have a chopper-mg unit?
Let's think that chopper uses some different technology. Something too weak to carry a real tank body. Or the body is too small to carry a machinegun. Remember the scale? Afaik, a human is hardly as tall as a tank's wheel. The machineguns we're seeing are really huge. The scout chopper would probably be much smaller (Rman Virgil? Help me on that one?)
Yeah, WZ's scale is non-uniform and all over the map. But it doesn't matter 'cause, like Pumpkin surmised, you're so busy playing the game that on the rare occassion you percieve the scale discreptancies you quickly shrug it off and it's not really a distraction or deal breaker to having fun.

In RL these pups are Quad Rotors made of model miniature components and smaller than a Baba - a payload of just sensors, data reception / transmission capability and a cam.... couldn't carry a toy poodle let alone munitions or ordinance. A fragility tradeoff for strictly what's needed to stay aloft to gather Intel, have increadible split second manuverabilty from one axis to another and continuously transmit data to central command.

Practically, for effective game play, that Baba scale woudn't work so I'm guessing maybe 60-70% the size of an MG Viper Wheels would do the trick.

** And actually one of Berg's proposed designs for a new transport from a couple years back could work just dandy with some modifications - like the suggested scale reference and making it strut skeletal to reflect the lack of armor or fuselage and minimal payload capacity.

EDIT: ** The Berg quad rotor model I think could be modified to fit the bill:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=6994

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 07 Aug 2013, 04:33

crab_ wrote:So We dont have consensus.
Does it mean what dev-team cannot do anything without consensus?
No consensus == do nothing?

I think some 'regulations' required, is it? 'regulations' of decision-making.
It just means that if you want this then create a mod for it. The devs will do as they please, which basically means the code game does not change much from retail.

As for the idea.. I really prefer the idea from NoQ. Using some type of UAV as a very early game scout makes more sense. A chopper is far easier to design and develop than a VTOL. Anyway, all new ideas are welcome. Just remember though that if its new or runs against the code of WZ just put it in a mod.

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by Rman Virgil » 07 Aug 2013, 05:23

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Thought experiments such as this should first go through a battery of Mod playtesting to assess their worth under actual MP game conditions, I think. Outstanding results would make thier own case for assimilation into the core game.

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Re: Scouting in early game

Post by crab_ » 07 Aug 2013, 08:05

Lord Apocalypse wrote: It just means that if you want this then create a mod for it.
Not only me "what this". At least NoQ agreed with overall idea of souting in early game.
This is balance subforum. I do not want scouting, but i see clearly - we dont have scout units in warzone.
Balance applied to multiplayer mostly. My suggestions are based on experience of playing warzone in multiplayer.
If you dont play MP then is useless to discuss any balance data.
Lord Apocalypse wrote: Just remember though that if its new or runs against the code of WZ just put it in a mod.
Many changes (like removed miss chance for direct weapons) are included in game without any mods.
Another example: price of derrick was setted 100$ in master version.
You have to rememeber: any change can be included in game if its true really need.
Rman Virgil wrote:.
Thought experiments such as this should first go through a battery of Mod playtesting to assess their worth under actual MP game conditions, I think. Outstanding results would make thier own case for assimilation into the core game.
.
Why need battery of playtesting? Current state of game making us able to implement small changes without any playtesting because balance tuning already broken.
Lord Apocalypse wrote: The devs will do as they please, which basically means the code game does not change much from retail.
Why code does not change much from retail? Do devs declared this as goal of project?
Devs do as they please, but this is opened balance subforum. Here are we suggesting things.

This problem with souting was discussed many times. See viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8878

We need souting unit in game. This is is not discussed here, because all agreed. But we discussing what kind of units and what type of scouting have to be implemented.
In my view of game better to make sensors units more usable in early game, better than idea add new chopper propulsion and make HQ work as factory.
I hope i'm saying clearly. I suspect some of my sentences can be read incorrect.
I repeat. We have sensor turret which actually usable only for targeting your atillery. Sensors are not used mostly in low-oil games. I suggest make sensors usable as scout units.
In my variant game requires less changes.
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