The vtol issue.

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Zepherian
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The vtol issue.

Post by Zepherian » 17 Jun 2013, 22:17

Here is the problem with vtols, as I see it. I won't go so far as to say they are unbalanced, but I do suspect there is some tweaking to be done here. So, as succintly as I can put it:

What, in real world situations, is the counter to a medium body vtol swarm, when it makes its first appearance? I know there is AA, but realistically a player will be by that time very busy, so it's not the same thing as countering standing armies. Out of nowhere come 30 medium vtols to bomb factories. How do you realistically stop them within the tech tree?

Light AA won't do it. Sunburst won't do it. Flak won't do it. Assault guns and cyborgs won't do it. Vtol vrs vtol is not really a counter and good luck with it anyways. That swarm will almost certainly hit home, and if the player is smart and has them on return at light damage, most of them will survive so he can do it again. I guess the real question here is: Should tier one AA weopons be stronger? All they seem to be able to kill is light bodies, and even those have to be in fairly low numbers unless there is a staggering amount of AA guns scattered about. Players that use vtols go for AA, Factories and Trucks, not necesserily in that order. It is a pretty hard hit to take for any player.

Just one more point: the question I make is on the actual capacity of the tech deployed, not on preempting the strike. Of course sometimes a person simply has not defended for it, and should take the hit. My point is that even preempting it seems to be pretty futile, and I've seen this quite a few times. The light mg AA won't kill enough of them. Sunburst has a rate of fire that is too low and tends to shoot too many missiles at the same vtol. Flak dosen't seem to be able to do much damage to anything. Cyborgs and the guns that do shoot up are weaker than AA. Lancers do some damage but not enough and have the same low RoF problem vrs vtols as the sunburst. Everything that does work, whirlwinds, SAM's, lasers is so far up the techtree that survivability untill time of deployment is the issue.

My suggestion is either tier one aa needs to be beefed up or the good stuff needs to come down the tech tree, as things stand now I maintain that first strikes with vtol swarms are too powerfull and hard (impossible when done right?) to couter to be considered a balanced and legitimate tactic. I also maintain that this is why most players ask for vtols off, because they have experience that tells them it's just too hard to counter, especially with everything else going on. And when it comes to medium body vtols and splash damage weopons that can take out AA, like thermite bombs, the issue just gets worse.

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The Overlord
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by The Overlord » 18 Jun 2013, 01:27

The thing is that vtols take a lot of time and power to research/build. Vtols are only effective in large numbers because if you send a few, your opponent will know you have them and focus a lot of power and research onto AA, therefore surprise is basically your only friend. You should be easily able to tell if your opponent is going vtols on high oil because they don't produce new tanks and become passive, forcing you to go at their defense.

The splash damage is negated when you don't build your AA in a straight line.

I think lasers should become available earlier into the game because they take a lot of power for weak results against late game weapons and bodies.

Finally, the reason players don't like to play with vtols is that they have to think whether to spend their power for research of aa
or to make more tanks. They pick to go for more tanks because they don't think that the opponent will go vtols like them - it is too much extra work. Then they cry when their opponent goes vtols because the opponent's vtols encounter no opposition.

p.s. Flak cannon is indeed crap - really expensive for little dps.
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Fabio_IT
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Fabio_IT » 18 Jun 2013, 01:34

for me Vtols are so fragile for all the AA weapon.
It's normal the weapon isn't good at start, without upgrade.
With a good research your AA weapon will begin good, someone is better than other. depend for what.
Large group of vtol or spare vtols?
Every weapon have his rof, his damage etc... you must choose the right mix.
Vtols bomb are unuseful at start too, you need full upgrade for make some damage.
And alwais i can't enter in the enemy base with less of 100-150 vtols....
And rearm is so looooong.....
I'm not sure the balance it's so bad....

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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Fabio_IT » 18 Jun 2013, 01:36

yes Overlord, right analysis

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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Zepherian » 18 Jun 2013, 02:45

For the record: after benchmarking research and doing an experimental game with Overlord I concede that aa research is indeed in time with vtol and body research and that it's balanced. This means that the aa can be built and upgraded in time to stop the vtols as they evolve and I was wrong.

The thing is it is a very binary situation. If you are playing a vtol game, power not being an issue, to be sure you will stop the vtols you must research aa asap and you must keep upgrading and building it non stop. There is no mid ground, which is why there has been so many vtol windows in the games I have played. It's not that the counter is not in the game, as I had thought, it is that to be sure vtols will be stopped if they are rushed the aa has to be rushed too, regardless of the player knowing whether a vtol strike is coming or not. Or it simply will fail vrs numbers. It's a razors edge deal. If you want effective aa it must be planned ahead when vtols are just a possibility. AA as an afterthought will not work. So either you do it with a high priority or risk it not working.

I guess you make your choices and take your chances. Vtol base strikes cannot be outplayed, they have to be outplanned, which I guess is where my difficulty was, and is where most players are failing against them. If vtol factory is on AA research becomes required for the counter to work. This is the same as saying players can't focus on an offensive strategy 100% or their research will leave them open. Offense has to be tempered with the the need to factor in vtol defense early or risk losing significant portions of a base.

This thread can very safely be forgotten 8)

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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Fabio_IT » 18 Jun 2013, 03:07

i agree on all Zepherian, about your last post

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Rommel
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Rommel » 28 Jul 2013, 19:20

I have found sunburst vtol to be an effective defense against other vtol, around 20 of these patrolling can really mess up a vtol attack - from what I have seen anyway. Anyone else have thoughts about using sunburst vtol as a defense against bombers? Looking at it history it seems that the fighter / interceptor was one of the most effective defenses against bombers, well up until the late 20th century anyway.
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by anonim17465 » 20 Dec 2013, 02:46

1) if enemy has from nowhere 30 VTOLs, and you have no VTOL factory and rearm pads - then you have 35 tanks more. Go and destroy his base.
2) VTOL sunburst can destroy about 6 planes in one go, so you will need just 5 VTOL with sunburst to revenge to his VTOLS and destroy all of them. And, because you have 25 more tanks - go and destroy his base.

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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by montetank » 20 Dec 2013, 03:44

No-no and no-the sunburst are useless. Maybe, that there are in balance right. But-you have to play: Concentration on your units. It is much easier to build some defense emplacements with hurricans-and to upgrade them. Later whirlwinds. Why to spend money and concentration for sunburst? So-if you want to use Vtols in later game-sunbursts are a solution-if you dont want (professional players dont use Vtols)-forget the sunbursts.
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by NoQ » 20 Dec 2013, 07:03

With sunburst you almost don't need any extra concentration; you just get a hard counter to any bombs for researching just one tech. With bigger teams you can often afford it even if you are already on hurricane branch.
professional players dont use Vtols
O_o

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Rommel
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by Rommel » 20 Dec 2013, 07:16

montetank wrote:No-no and no-the sunburst are useless.
They have their place, I find them useful in situations where you have to defend a wide area from vtol strikes or defend a lazy teammate that hasn't built up AA defenses. There are also times when trucks / engineers can't be spared to build AA, ie when you are stuck in the middle of an arty spamfest or any other number of things. There is also the pleasure of watching your intercepters make mince meat of an enemy's bombers ;)
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Re: The vtol issue.

Post by montetank » 20 Dec 2013, 10:13

Sorry-i am wrong- i mixed two threads in One. I was in the low-oil discussion and in this one. Won`t happend in the future. Excuse me
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.

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