Balance 3.1. Is possibly to fix before 3.2?

[crab_]

The result is that if you build an extra research lab for something else then mg in the first 6 minutes, you are doomed.

My tests show: pure rush can be resisted more or less by using half-tracks (tested with good players).
Rushing player have speed advantage and can destroy oil derricks.
Starting with half-tracks give power module earlier, even if rusher killed half of your oil you still have good chances to recover.
Strategy(build order) with half-tracks is the same as rush-strategy except your first research is "engineering" instead of mg_upgrade.
Well. many things are dependent on map and skill of players. I tested rush strategy mostly on custom map. e.g. i think on start-up map rush is stronger than half-tracks.

Note that i distinguish "pure" rush, from normal rush in which the player usually still care about a second research lab eventually.

I think you still need second lab at the end of your build order (even in pure rush)
(depends on number of oil, luck with oil drums, etc.)

[Iluvalar]

Well play with even better players. I tried with NoQ here and I think we can say I owned him badly using a pure rush strategy.

We concluded that the only way he could resist is to do the same sort of build.

[Rommel]

Hey. I'm finished beta version of my patch. Need testers
Actually, testing is most problematic part, I want to prepare a set of tests.
i dont know is my changes controlversal or not

I started reading that list and felt all negative (the afraid of change syndrome), but then strangely enough it became to me very well thought out! The main thing is that you have took the time to create an actual working demonstration instead of just sitting back arguing about numbers! Thanks a lot for your hard work, it is much appreciated.

Do you have a specific guideline for testing?

[crab_]

Do you have a specific guideline for testing?

Currently i working on next version of patch. Please wait next version before testing.
I found some unsolvable issues in my patch.

As for testing - mostly changes are not noticeable.
Main thing i want to test - is balance of rockets and cannons.


I'm afraid testing give wrong results. Only in many competitive games we can get true feeling of balance.
We need many and many iterations to improve balance.
It is hard to convince devs to include balance changes. Apparently one patch is not enough.

[crab_]

Hello.
I finished work on second version of my patch.

Changes comparing to first version:
- Fixed mistakes which were pointed out by testers
- Flamers nerfed a bit more. costant hardcoded BURN_DAMAGE was reduced
- Speed of tanks was re-valuated (anyway overall effect not noticeable)

Changes List

Code: Select all

1) Flamers nerfed.
 - Thermal armor of yellow bodies increased greatly (bug +70%, scorpion+40%, mantis+30%).
 - Thermal armor of cyborgs increased
 - Flamer damage reduced.
 - Thermal armor upgrades moved earlier.
 - Bug body was made available earlier in game
Note: Kinetic amro of yellow bodies was decreased a bit (to avoid making yellow bodies overpowered)
2) Machineguns nerfed
 - Impact of rate-of-fire upgrades reduced -15%
 - Reduced MG damage to structures and defenses (-40%)
 - Reduced damage to half-tracked and tracked tanks
3) Try to increase effectiveness of early artillery in low-oil games
 - Mortars, bombards was improved.
 - Howitzer improved (damage +20%, price -20%)
Note: mortar pit was nerfed to satisfy high-oil games (construction time +35%, price +10%)
Incendiary mortars was also nerfed.
4) Nerf bunkers (because we nerfed flamers)
 - Bunkers price +25%, construction time +50%
5) Try to nerf rush strategies in early game in low-oil matches
 - Reduced production time for Mini-Pod and Light Cannon 
 - Reduced research time for Mini-Pod and Light Cannon (minus 20 seconds)
 - Reduced effect of oil drum from $100 to $50
 - Truck speed reduced (now trucks 25% slower on off-road in early game)
6) Try to bring scout units into game
 - Sensor now available from beggining of game, not need research and build Command Center.
 - Reduced production time of sensor turret
7) Hover propulsion nerfed, speed -20%
8) Try to increase effectiveness of defensive strategies in low-oil matches
 - price of cannon hardpoints -25%
 - removed requirement to have researched MG Bunker before start research MG Hardpoint
 - improved Mini-Rocket-Array Battery
 - improved Tank Trap (armor +100%)
9) Reduced effect of ROF upgrades of AA-turrets
Note: AA-turrets were very strong in late game.
10) Cannons slightly improved in early and medium game
 - Light cannon, splash radius increased
 - HPV-cannon, rate-of-fire increased +14% 
 - Assault cannon, decreased production time and price.
11) Fortresses nerfed
 - Construction time of all fortresses was increased
 - Heavy Rocket Bastion nerfed, range -20%
12) VTOL Bombs changed
 - Improved Phosphor Bomb Bay, Cluster Bomb Bay (damage +40%)
 - Nerfed Thermite Bomb Bay, Plasmite Bomb Bay (damage -20%)
Note: thermal bombs also was nerfed by improving thermal armor of yellow and green bodies.
13) Some overpowered researches changed
 - Impact of power generator upgrades was reduced 25% (this touches only 3 first power upgrades)
 - Slightly nefed effect of first upgrades of research (Synaptic Link Data Analysis mk1, mk2, mk3).
Note: medium game research was made a bit lsower, but late game research became 'faster'
14) Some late-game weapons and bodies improved to make them more usable
 - Flashlight, Pulse Laser improved (rate-of-fire +15%, damage +10%)
 - Needle Gun, rate-of-fire +15%
 - Black bodies: decreased research requirements, decreased production time
 - Leopard body: moved earlier in research.
 - EMP Cannon: moved earlier in research.
15) Transports weapons nerfed. Strategy of transporters-abuse was removed. 
16) Increased ammo of VTOL-weapons.
Note: this does not affect VTOl-Bombs
17) Try to reduce role of artillery on late stage of high-oil games
 - Increased construction time for Ground Shaker, Ripple Rockets, Hellstorm
18) Nerfed Laser Satellite Command Post

[NoQ]

Did you have a chance to play-test that? Cause each line makes sense to me, but i'm too much out of mp lately to discuss.

[crab_]

Did you have a chance to play-test that? Cause each line makes sense to me, but i'm too much out of mp lately to discuss.

Good question.
Tested only in several games. I planned more testing. If you give me few days i can test it more (but i'm afraid i dont have these days).
Though most changes are not noticeable

I'm afraid play-testing is not sufficient to detect problems in new balance. Need plenty of competitive games to say exactly what tactic is overpowered etc.
Tournaments is good for it.

I think you quite good to discuss.
I play MP from time to time, nothing changed in last year, people still playing NTW. No new tactics were discovered.. etc.
We need more tournaments to see good classic low-oil matches.

[crab_]

Hello.
I have finished new version of my balance patch.
- Fixed few mistakes in numbers and removed few changes
- T2 Tech: removed heavy cannon, added Leopard, added Thermal Armor, added HPV Cannon
I do not plan change something else.

Here is mod-file to dload:

balance_for3.1_ver3.wz

(57.58 KiB) Downloaded 363 times

Latest patch attached to ticket #4097


Just noticed Super Transport weapon was changed in 3.1 branch, so i have to update my patch..

[NoQ]

My attempt:

• balance-3-1-1.wz

  (16.96 KiB) Downloaded 336 times

  balance.patch

  (23 KiB) Downloaded 270 times

Try to fix most urgent stuff via simple quantitative tweaks, leave the rest for 3.2.

Complete changelog:

Spoiler:

• Nerf machineguns. Reduce role of machineguns as meat shields.
  • Twin Machinegun, VTOL Twin Machinegun, Bunker Twin Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 125->100.
  • Heavy Machinegun, VTOL Heavy Machinegun, Bunker Heavy Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 150->125.
  • Assault Gun, VTOL Assault Gun, Bunker Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 250->175.
  • Twin Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 300->225.
  • Modifiers:
    • vs. Medium structures: 80->65.
    • vs. Hard structures: 50->40.
    • vs. Bunkers: 75->50.
• Buff cannons, in order to match them up with rockets.
  • Light cannon, VTOL Light cannon:
    • Hit Points 200->250.
    • Research Points 2400->1800.
  • Assault cannon:
    • Damage 35->40, Splash 25->35.
• Nerf flamers. Don't let flamer hovers chase other hovers.
  • Flamer:
    • Price 40->60.
    • Incendiary damage 28->24.
  • Inferno:
    • Price 110->130.
    • Weight 500->5000.
    • Incendiary damage 32->28.
  • Plasmite:
    • Price 130->160.
    • Weight 750->5000.
    • Incendiary damage 50->40.
  • Incendiary mortar:
    • Incendiary radius 192->128.
  • Incendiary howitzer:
    • Incendiary radius 256->192.
    • Incendiary damage 32->28.
  • Modifiers:
    • vs. Halftracks: 100->80.
    • vs. Tracks: 90->70.
• Nerf hovers.
  • Hover propulsion:
    • Price 100->150.
    • Hit points 150->100.
• Nerf transports.
  • Cyborg transports:
    • Weapon HMG->MG.

[crab_]

@NoQ
Settings flamer incendiary damage from 28 to 24 and increasing price +20% price is not enought.
Reducind HP of twin machinegun -8% is not enough.

As i rememeber HP of weapon not used to calculate HP of structure, not sure..

Nerf flamers. Don't let flamer hovers chase other hovers.

Good idea.

Price 100->150.
Hit points 150->100.

This change should greatly nerf hovers, i like it.

[Rommel]

Great idea about nerfing hovers as they have always seemed to be too resistant to punishment for what they are (ie the materials that they are made from). Would it be logical to nerf them at say light or medium bodies as well? Ie you would not think a hovercraft would have the power to actually lift a heavy body off the ground - I have been looking at the russian hovertank created in the 90's and it only weighed 11 tones which seems to point to severe weight limitations for hover tech - the abrams tank is over 60 tons in weight. Maybe this would run to VTOL as well... Or maybe enough restrictions added to speed for heavy bodies that makes hover practically useless (or maybe useless until more powerful engines are researched?).

Just some ideas as the extreme speed of hover prop. compared to other prop. types seems to require some kind of sanction to balance things out. This might also give players time to recover from a rush because the attacking player cannot get to the defenders base in time to keep the pressure on

[NoQ]

75/75/75/125/125 hp for machineguns, and also tweak upgrades as you did: ok?
22 incend.dmg for flamer, 20 for flame cyborg ok? Or increase price further?

[crab_]

75/75/75/125/125 hp for machineguns, and also tweak upgrades as you did: ok?
22 incend.dmg for flamer, 20 for flame cyborg ok? Or increase price further?

Flamer:
Reducing incendiary damage from 28 to 22 will reduce 13% DPS to inflamed enemy unit (viper) (assuming flamer have 3 first damage upgrades)
Note1: flamer has additional 15 incendiary damage (hardcoded BURN_DAMAGE)
Note2: incendiary damage not affected by propulsion modifiers, 100% to any propulsion

I've made excel damage calculation for flamers. but not sure, may be there some mistakes

Flamer damage calc.xlsx

(14.04 KiB) Downloaded 197 times

MG:
I think tweak upgrades is required (-15%)
And i think AP weapon modifier to half-tracks can be reduced.

[NoQ]

but not sure, may be there some mistakes

Emm i don't understand why "not burning" damage is decreased by changing incendiary damage. Anyway, 18/14 incendiary damage makes a bit more sense, right?

I think tweak upgrades is required (-15%)

Your change makes some upgrades buffed, some upgrades nerfed. What is the right way of implementing "-15%"?

[crab_]

Emm i don't understand why "not burning" damage is decreased by changing incendiary damage.

Need to check excel formulas, it can be damaged someway.
In what line you have this issue?

Anyway, 18/14 incendiary damage makes a bit more sense, right?

I think 18/14 is better, i can suggest to reduce constant BURN_DAMAGE.

Your change makes some upgrades buffed, some upgrades nerfed. What is the right way of implementing "-15%"?

Impact of ROF upgrades is controlled by functions.txt

Code: Select all

Weapon Upgrade,Wpn-MG-ROF01,MACHINE GUN,20,0,0,0,0,0,0
Weapon Upgrade,Wpn-MG-ROF02,MACHINE GUN,38,0,0,0,0,0,0
Weapon Upgrade,Wpn-MG-ROF03,MACHINE GUN,46,0,0,0,0,0,0

Value 20 in first line means firepause will be decreased by 20% from base value.
ROFupgrade = ROF_base/(100 - firepause_upgrade) => 100%/(100 - 20) = 1,25
values 20,38,46 means 125% ROF, 161% ROF, 185% ROF
In currents version we have values 17,34,50 => 120%, 151%, 200%
As you can see, last ROF ungrade have nice effect. Whole army of MG becomes 33% stronger

In my patch i also adjusted sequence of MG upgrades, to make player receive MG upgrades later.