Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future ?

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
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Stratadrake
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Stratadrake » 12 Jul 2012, 17:42

Not quite what I meant. I meant that VTOLs could have some manner of a line-of-sight check too, but the effect wouldn't be as pronounced as with ground units since VTOLs get a birds-eye view of their targets.
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by aubergine » 12 Jul 2012, 17:46

Yup, that makes sense. Will the extra LOS checking not cause game lag?
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Stratadrake » 15 Jul 2012, 04:45

...the $100,000 question. Anyone got a lifeline?
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Iluvalar » 15 Jul 2012, 08:31

I do believe the LOS fonction for 3.1 is exactly "tip of weapon -to- middle" already. And it's good for any structure or unit shooting any structure or unit.

It's the exagerately realistic "tip of weapon" part that cause assymetrical problems right now.
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Aug 2012, 23:08

It just jumped in my face... there is another factor we forgot : the perfect army size.

What is that ? Well, when we invest in the army, each new unit add it's own strenght to the total. While when you research it's a very small boost that is spread every units that are already in the battle. As the army grow there is a sweat spot where the value of the army meet the research progression. That's the perfect army size.

In the standard games, that size grow along the time because the research gives less with the time passing while in NRS it's stable.

Because it's very hard to deal with commander and non-commanded armies at the same time, this mean that the price of the commander and his units must be proportionnal to the perfect army size...
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Aug 2012, 23:43

Iluvalar wrote:It just jumped in my face... there is another factor we forgot : the perfect army size.

What is that ? Well, when we invest in the army, each new unit add it's own strenght to the total. While when you research it's a very small boost that is spread every units that are already in the battle. As the army grow there is a sweat spot where the value of the army meet the research progression. That's the perfect army size.

In the standard games, that size grow along the time because the research gives less with the time passing while in NRS it's stable.

Because it's very hard to deal with commander and non-commanded armies at the same time, this mean that the price of the commander and his units must be proportionnal to the perfect army size...
Very insightful. In all these years thinking about commanders this never crossed my mind. I just blindly accepted the Pumpkin GPM correlation between kills-rank-army size as the absolute baseline.

Truth be told I wouldn't even know where to begin to figure out the perfect army size utilizing your insight. :hmm:

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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Iluvalar » 23 Aug 2012, 03:46

We dont think about that because on short term we are guided by the increase of global units. One unit is infinitely better than none. We end up dosing the production of units and the agressivity we rarely consider the size of the whole army. But it is the mechanism that impose to everyone the number of units in the map.


I can help you to figure this out. :)

First you need the figure count function : Fig(x)=(x²+x)/2

This will allow you to calculate that 4 units worth 10 units in a row and 5 units worth 15 units in a row. With that you can figure out that your 5th unit will increase your total strenght by 50% (assuming you group them together) with that and the cost of that unit in mind you can compare with the price and the gain of a given research.

(((x+1)²+(x+1))/2(x²+x)/2)-1/cost_unit=res_gain/cost_res

Where x is the ideal number of unit.

Assuming the game is balanced, the cost of the total army should be steady whatever the design choice you made.
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Aug 2012, 12:03

.

Mon ami! I haven't used that part of my brain for an eternity. It hurts. :O_o

Take me a bit to clear the cob webs away. Thanks for pointing the way to a clearer understanding. :)

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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Iluvalar » 31 Aug 2012, 07:52

Up !!

I'm really considering using commanders in my default strategy in NRS now... Just like I use the repair factory most of the time. They are totally functionnal in there...
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Re: Commander Dev Continues - Still No MP Testing Support

Post by Rman Virgil » 31 Aug 2012, 15:10

Iluvalar wrote:Up !!

I'm really considering using commanders in my default strategy in NRS now... Just like I use the repair factory most of the time. They are totally functionnal in there...
That sounds very promising. :) I will have to check it out. Makes me hopefull, in a tangible way, that someday WZ will have a place among the elite RTSs. A place aknowledged outside of this community, in the greater RTS world that is. I do believe fully developed Commander GPMs has the power to attain that end. I see nothing else being a vehicle to that end. Other developments can contribute to that end but only fully deved Commanders can take it over the hump and across that particular finish line, IMHO, natch. ;)

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