Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future ?

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Cyp » 21 Mar 2012, 19:36

Iluvalar wrote:What you are talking about is not a square. It's what i call the figure count bonus : f^2+f/2 . Note that oddly enough that formula make 20v10 (390%) a little more efficient than 10v5 (380%). I didn't took that into account until now in this topic.

I guess, i should not say 6 + 1 commander = 7.5 tanks, but more 7 tanks having each a mean of 107% of efficiency. Which is slightly different.. But unless your plan is to balance the commanders exactly with me right now, I don't think it will change anything to my main argument.
As far as I understand from what you're saying, you normally mean squonus by bonus, except you accidentally used the squonus as a lionus, then. I don't really care if it's f² + f/2 or f² or f² + φf - π/f⁴², as long as the leading term is f². (I'm guessing what you mean by figure count bonus.)

The 107% sounds more reasonable (don't care about exact numbers, but the previous 125% was way off) — saying the commander adds 0.42 tanks is not quite the same thing as previously saying 1 commander adds 1.5 tanks.

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar » 21 Mar 2012, 20:13

you dont listen lol.

I said : it add itself. so it go from 6 to 7 tanks. PLUS it increase the mean efficiency of each tanks (including himself) by 7% more (((100%+25%)*6+0)/7).

Actualy, i should probably consider that 33% of the units are dead/repairing/traveling...
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Cyp » 21 Mar 2012, 22:36

Testing, I tried several random tank designs, and the only design where 6 tanks + 1 commander could (barely) beat 7 tanks was if the tanks were MG viper halftracks. For the other designs I tried, 7 tanks easily beat 6 tanks + 1 commander.

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Mar 2012, 00:31

here my result with a bit of micro :
Attachments
wz2100-20120321_173758-Sk-NTW_ver2-T1.jpg
5 survivor out of 6 if the commander take some damage at start.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by aubergine » 22 Mar 2012, 02:21

How exactly do you micro with a commander? It won't micro it's own units so I assume you had to keep unassigning them and then reassign them to get that screen shot?
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Mar 2012, 02:52

no, i just stuck the commander between the enemies and the first dying unit. Therefore I used the extra high hp he had in my advantage. When you leave the commander to his own, he tend to stay too much in behind. Which is perfect for normal situation when he send units i repair and reserve reenforcement, but not really for a frontal clash like 6v7.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 22 Mar 2012, 04:47

Not everyone here is good enough at micromanagement you know.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Mar 2012, 06:34

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Commander threads are sprouting like wild mushrooms on a dank forest floor of a sudden.

If they yield MP play-testing data then all to the good and I will pay attention to that data. Otherwise I am focused here.

We already have 13 years worth of aggregated raw brainstorming Commander ideas (along with new concepts being generated here - I am filtering out dups from the past 13 years), that will benefit from the structured analysis approach we are taking here as precursor to scientific experimental Mod play-testing to gather data for assessing on going changes and continued refinement testing, which I tried to explain in another thread today but to no avail.

Here is what I said in that other thread today, which is but a brief restatement of what has been addressed already at the top of this effort but is worth reiterating.

NOTE: Microing Commanders in the context of multiple combat group tactical vectors and velocities is a subject that was first defined in mega detail as such back in 2004 prior to source release. I've already provided links to that material including one a couple posts back concerning the Global Command Interface (aka, GCI) which was specifically a new UI to facilitate this very microing of commanders. Going forward, this will be plugged into our analysis and our 2 organizing templates for deving.

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If the goal is to settle on a set of changes, make a mod, test in MP, gather data, analyze ... repeat... well then it is an effort of tangible value. :)

In the thread referenced by aubergine above, the deep brainstorming being done is within a 2-tiered, pragmatic framework designed with that very end goal - live testing a series of mods of increasing complexity that are subject (as best as possible) to the scientific method of experimentation & analysis as we progress. Such criteria as balance, flow, win viabilty, in-theater tactics expansion & enhancing the fun-factor, would be central to that process as a whole.

So, if what your doing here will result in MP play testing data then it will surely advance the cause of Commanders. :D

There is value in brainstorming & polling....but, it's like coming up with what you're sure is a great receipe for a fine meal.... you gotta get it all put together just right and cook it well otherwise you'll never know, one way or another, & just go hungry thinking about what could have been a tasty meal.

- Regards, Rman :hmm:
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Mar 2012, 07:02

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:Not everyone here is good enough at micromanagement you know.
This is not the common situation, general the commander will push forward, and will receive fresh reinforcement during the process. (not a big clash of 6v7 as we did in that test). Microing a commander is easy enough, as i said, it only need to wet himself and go take some damage when the fight is very tight (like the theorical maxium of 7.5 I calculated).

If he is used as expected in a repair cycle, it have the good behavior by staying a bit away and cover the retreat.


Roman, I'm thinking a bit more precisely at what it take to make the commanders functional like they are right now. Talking with others here helped me figure out most of the problem. i'll be back soon with my advancement.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Mar 2012, 07:28

Iluvalar wrote:.....

Rman, I'm thinking a bit more precisely at what it take to make the commanders functional like they are right now. Talking with others here helped me figure out most of the problem. i'll be back soon with my advancement.
Cool. :D

About 3 years ago I came to a powerfully elegant solution for more functional, fun & tactically richer Commander Microing than the GCI UI. It involves re-tooling the mini-map...


This elegant solution doesn't involve some trick algorithms or mini.A.I. scripts but rather allows the player to more effectively utilize their own tactical brain in theater, in the heat of battle, to roll-out true 21st century G4 warfare doctrine. Cognitive science has clearly & scientifically demonstrated over the last 2 decades, through Cognitive Task Analysis (aka, CTA), that Multi-tasking is a MYTH. What is actually happening in the human brain is more accurately described as Switch-Tasking and the mini-map solution is a design (as was the "GCI" 8 years ago) that takes this into account 100%.... But I will explain those details in another post. :3

- Cheers, Rman. :hmm:

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Last edited by Rman Virgil on 22 Mar 2012, 08:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Cyp » 22 Mar 2012, 07:55

Iluvalar wrote:here my result with a bit of micro :
Here's my result with a bit of micro:
Attachments
wz2100-20120322_065129-Sk-NTWMax2-T1.jpg

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Emdek » 22 Mar 2012, 09:41

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:Not everyone here is good enough at micromanagement you know.
Really? :-)
Image
Although these weren't grouped, but I've used exact the same strategy - use commander HP. ;-)
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Mar 2012, 12:03

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About 3 years ago I came to a powerfully elegant solution for more functional, fun & tactically richer Commander Microing than the GCI UI. It involves re-tooling the mini-map...


This elegant solution doesn't involve some trick algorithms or mini.A.I. scripts but rather allows the player to more effectively utilize their own tactical brain in theater, in the heat of battle, to roll-out true 21st century G4 warfare doctrine. Cognitive science has clearly & scientifically demonstrated over the last 2 decades, through Cognitive Task Analysis (aka, CTA), that Multi-tasking is a MYTH. What is actually happening in the human brain is more accurately described as Switch-Tasking and the mini-map solution is a design (as was the "GCI" 8 years ago) that takes this into account 100%.... But I will explain those details in another post. :3

- Cheers, Rman. :hmm:
A pic is worth a thousand words.

I'll see about making a graphic mock-up of this Re-tooled Mini-Map.

After that I'll get back to past proposal analysis & template break-outs.

To illustrate that process I'll start with this recent set of proposals:

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Mirefrost00 wrote:
To get the ball rolling on the Commander issue, it may help to start right now changing how the community looks at the Commander unit. Bringing them to the forefront of theater roles, doing what we can to make them more useful to all, in campaign and multiplayer alike, is what I view as the best way to do so.

Forgive me if my ideas are a bit too radical, but I'm not used to considering the desires and opinions of an entire community. What modding I've done in the past has been frankensteining pieces of other ideas together to make fun toys for myself in such games as Cortex Command and Dwarf Fortress. I will leave it to those of you more experienced in such consideration to determine at what rate we might accelerate along any paths chosen.

# - Removing or greatly increasing the unit cap is an excellent idea. It could be based on a much longer scale than the standard experience ranks, so that you could still have a fresh Commander be limited in its command capacity, but after some time in the field, grow to command 50+ units at once, which would find more use in the longer-term, I believe.

# - If not taking them to the full, stupendous scale of a Mk. XXX Bolo, the Commanders should still be the toughest things on the battlefield. Consider that they will eventually be following generalized battle orders and choosing harrassment or strike targets independent of the player's attention, meaning all at the same time. That, plus the large numbers of land and air units they will be coordinating will make them popular targets. They should be able to singlehandedly best three or four MBTs, and survive a few strikes from the heaviest artillery and still limp away to a Repair Facility.

This will be balanced as follows.

# - In their central role, as I envision it, they must also be more exclusive. No army should be able to field more than three or four of these beasts in a given engagement. The logistical chain would strain to the breaking point, not only repairing them and feeding their cannons, but the staff required at HQ and the CRC to maintain strategic momentum for such massive battalions. Once we reach the long-term phase, the CRC should either be larger, and/or more expensive.

The Command Bolos :D should be more than worth the added trouble by that time.

tl;dr - For the short term:

- Increase the unit cap, and ramp up the gains per level.

- Make the Command Turret tougher, and take the idea someone mentioned regarding twin turret hulls for these guys, or beef up the weapon.

- Limit each team to a small handful of Commanders, to balance their tremendous capabilities, and entice players to use them to coordinate large battlegroups in theater.

Hope this is what you were asking for. I look forward to responses to this, as I need to gauge what you are all looking for.

P.S. - The CRC could be where Commander experience is stored, if that becomes an accepted idea. It really should be tied into every aspect of these guys' survival.

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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Mar 2012, 21:56

Ok so here are my preliminary results :

After running a very complex calculation, it seem to me that the guy that balanced the commander had some skill into that kind of approximation. The stats we have now should not be so bad... However I understand that the commanders are underated right now, so we can try to play with some parameters...

What i suggest for now is to expect medium bodies instead of heavy bodies. We know that the commander multiply the strength of his unit and since it is capped to 6, it is better to build a heavy body group. So the boost is stronger for the same turret price...

If we try to set them to hmg cobra htrack, at level 3 and 2/3 of the units in battle... I obtain : 190$ for 580HP. I join a mod that work both on 2.3 and 3.1 for tests. it also load beggar kanyon when use as a map.

I need data to conitnue :
1) How much units are really in combat ?
2) What level do you commander reach ?
3) What kind of unit you plan to use ?
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Mar 2012, 00:18

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Wow, that's awesome. I didn't expect a mod to test this fast. That is a high standard you've set. :)

I suggest the focus from here on in this thread (& for a good while ahead) be on testing Iluvalar's mod & posting detailed feedback.

I'm holding off posting any other stuff I mentioned working on till after this testing runs its course and recommend everyone follow that example and let this mod have the floor of our collective, undivided, attention. Thank's in advance for that. :3

Like I mentioned in the CAM 4 thread yesterday I have to wait till I get back home from my trip on Fri. 3/30 to run WZ as I am traveling with just my new Android OS device. Drats! This is exciting & I wish I could jump into right now. Frustrating having to wait to check it out. :(

However, I trust that there will be enough folks here interested in commander improvement who will be able to jump on this mod and give it a fair spin soon. I'll be attending closely all posted experiences and look forward to learning and gathering valuable insights from what you guys report.

- Cheers, RV. :hmm:

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