Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future ?

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
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effigy
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by effigy »

These seem to be common ideas:
Mirefrost00 wrote:...
tl;dr - For the short term:
- Increase the unit cap, and ramp up the gains per level.
- Make the Command Turret tougher, and take the idea someone mentioned regarding twin turret hulls for these guys, or beef
up the weapon.
- Limit each team to a small handful of Commanders, to balance their tremendous capabilities, and entice players to use them
to coordinate large battlegroups in theater.

...
Next time bold the tl;dr so I see it sooner :lol2:

Allowing weapons and command turrets on the Dragon body sounds acceptable to me, considering the tech level at the point in the game.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Mirefrost00 »

Good points, all around. Thanks, folks! Assimilating data...

I hadn't taken into consideration that Commanders already tend to linger around the edge of the battle, thanks to the long range of their beam. That does make turning them into demiKrogoths a bit redundant, I suppose. Haven't noticed before, do they tend to maintain that buffer of distance when on Long Range orders, as things are now? Also, would anyone support the possibility of a very high-mark (around VII or VIII) Command Turret that *did* make them Bolo-esque, but at tremendous cost and research time? We do already have the LasSat Control Center.... If all else fails, it'd make an awesome mod. :D
Emdek wrote:Also about commander actions, I always wanted "preferred targets" or behaviors, like attack structures first, only engage a bit and return etc. (extending it looks like good task for mutators, when they would be allowed to inject menu entries or use terminal to entry SQL queries like orders).
THIS. But it'll likely be part of the long-term goals, as someone mentioned earlier the idea of giving broad orders to one or all command groups and them hashing out the tactical minutiae through the AI.
aubergine wrote:So, there should be a balance between a player who chooses to use commanders and a player who instead chooses to just have loads more units (because they've saved the time/cost associated with making bolos = they can build more normal units as a result) and manual micromanagement of them.
Yes, also a good point. But, as things are now, to balance this, weight needs to be added on the Commander's end. For the short-term, what would be best? The unit cap boost might do the trick. What have been the most common reasons people give for not using Commanders in MP?

tl;dr - Hearing consensus on boosting the unit command cap. The other two ideas will stand or fall by their own merits, and I move my support behind unit cap.

Also, a post snuck in while I typed (so glad I always Preview). Effigy mentioned the twin-turret Dragon hull. Forgot about that. That'd work nicely! :D
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

@Mirefrost00: I believe that it should already be possible to create more advanced versions of commanders through modding, though I doubt that people would want to implement them into the main game. Replacing outdated turrets can get tiring fast.

If, by adding weight to commanders, I assume that you mean adding additional physical weight, so that they'd require more powerful engines to keep them from slowing down so much, right?
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by effigy »

Mirefrost00 wrote:Good points, all around. Thanks, folks! Assimilating data...

I hadn't taken into consideration that Commanders already tend to linger around the edge of the battle, thanks to the long range of their beam. That does make turning them into demiKrogoths a bit redundant, I suppose. Haven't noticed before, do they tend to maintain that buffer of distance when on Long Range orders, as things are now?
...
What's a demiKrogoth? Also, "in theater" has been referenced several times... what is meant by that?

Usually a commander will stay behind due to it's rand, though this isn't perfect. It's possible for the Commander to arrive at the battle front long before it's drones (depending on configuration), or to get close due to terrain/structure obstacles (thus promoting indirect fire style targeting).
...
tl;dr - Hearing consensus on boosting the unit command cap. The other two ideas will stand or fall by their own merits, and I move my support behind unit cap.
...
Someone mentioned capping the total number of commanders. Like they said, depending on how much commanders are improved (i.e. greater HP) I think that's a good idea in conjunction.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Emdek »

Total number of them in theory is capped to five already.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by aubergine »

Maybe a way to limit number of commanders is have it so that each commander uses the equivalent power of an oil derrick (so if you've got 4 active derricks and make a commander, your income will be equivalent to 3 derricks because the commander is consuming the 4th)...?
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Emdek »

aubergine, too complicated and unrelated for me. ;-)
5 commanders is just enough, also there is UI issue in case of more (though tabs could solve this probably).
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by aubergine »

What about a CRC needed for each commander? Or a module on the CRC for each?
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by aubergine »

effigy wrote:What's a demiKrogoth? Also, "in theater" has been referenced several times... what is meant by that?
Krogoth = http://totalannihilation.wikia.com/wiki/Krogoth

in theater = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theater_(warfare)
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Emdek »

aubergine, I'm not sure if we really need to be so detailed.
Like suspension tanks for cyborg factory, according to campaign video there should at least as many them as cyborgs. ;-)
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by effigy »

aubergine wrote:What about a CRC needed for each commander? Or a module on the CRC for each?
This sounds good to me (assuming we discover "too many" commanders are possible, whatever the reason (op, etc)).
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Rman Virgil »

.

Wow... a wealth of new data to process. Hmm... I have proposition to make.

Would each of you gentlemen take a few moments to consider the merits of plugging-in your proposals into the following frameworks as you see fit, & where apt in your judgement, then posting it..?


======================>



Short-term Commander Improvements to Dev:


* Combat Mechanics:

  • ~

    ~

    ~

* Experience & Rank Linked Boosts for Commander Grouped Units:

  • ~

    ~

    ~


===========================>




Long-term Commander Improvements to Dev:


* Combat Mechanics:
  • ~

    ~

    ~

* Experience & Rank Linked Boosts for Commander Grouped Units:
  • ~

    ~

    ~

* Command UI changes:
  • ~

    ~

    ~
.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

Short-term Commander Improvement Suggestions:
1. Increase limit to how many units a Commander may have assigned to it. 6 seems to be too steep a limit for a freshly-produced commander.
2. Reduce prices of various Command Turrets, especially the higher-tiered ones (which can cost as much as $1750). (May require some tweaks to HP and/or weight to balance out.)

Intermediate-term Commander Improvements Suggestions:
1. Rescale HP of Command Turrets so that each new tier would have HP equal to or greater than the HP bonus provided by the armor upgrade that's required to research them. For example, a Command Turret II would have at least 190% as much HP as a Command Turret I, while a Command Turret IV would have at least 370% as much HP as a Command Turret I. This would help ensure that Commanders remain useful in T2 and T3 games, where turret HP starts to matter less and less due to armor upgrades. (May require reducing the HP of the original Command Turrets to balance out.)

Long-term Commander Suggestions:
1. Allow any units that are assigned to the commander, including artillery, and possibly even repair turrets, to temporarily retreat for repairs, then reassign themselves to the commander once fully repaired.
2. Have any repair units that are assigned to the commander go to retreating units within their group to repair them.
3. Removal of need for Command Relay Center (or any buildings in fact, save for factories of course) to produce them since they don't seem to serve any other purpose. In fact, they'd pretty much be a waste of space. :stare:

Features that I hope would NEVER, EVER be implemented:
1. Retain commander experience after death: This would likely cause serious balance issues for commanders. Even if a certain building, such as the Command Relay Center, needed to be present in order for experience to be retained after death, I fear that it would encourage players to send their commanders (possibly only building a single commander), and their accompanying forces, into battle at all times, since all units assigned to the commander would be treated as if their experience level was the same as the commander's. :annoyed: (I believe that a similar debate was brought up concerning retaining experience upon death.)
2. Having the commander's projectile be treated as an indirect fire unit: Um, hello? Commanders are meant to be leaders of front-line task forces? Even though commanders can have artillery units assigned to them, we already have Sensor Turrets that are better-suited for leading groups of artillery. :P
3. Increasing projectile damage of commanders to actually make them into a serious threat on their own: When combined with their high HP, I fear that this would make them OP. Also, commanders were designed to be support units 1st and foremost. They need that extra HP more than they need the extra firepower, just so that they could better survive being ganged up on since they'd be such high-priority targets for being able to provide all those experience bonuses in the 1st place.
4. Removing limits to how many units commanders can have assigned to them: Iluvalar provided a nice reason for not implementing this kind of change in the post directly after this one.
Last edited by Shadow Wolf TJC on 18 Mar 2012, 05:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Iluvalar »

Short term :
*Boost hp a bit more
*Make ctrl+A leave commander alone.

Long term :
*Add some research plug-and-play AI modules. Each module give the commander a little more personnality. For exemple :
** Make him aware of the bases position and defendable choke point. Go in good direction, follow a bit the enemy
** Make him return after the repair
** Make him order his unit to stay on front when he need to repair
** Make him recycle and update his old units when factories are avalaible
** Auto-ressurect
** repair wise
** truck wise
** Factory reordering : reorder the queue according to the better weapons modifier * upgrade possible atm
** etc.

DO NOT uncap the unit limit !! The reason is simple : the commander gives a bonus to each commanded unit. So it get stronger the more we assign him units... If he can have 100 units, we'll need to consider it in the balance and make sure it is not over-efficient when he possess >80 units, this mean that every commander will suck unless they control ~60 units. It will not be an option to have a huge amount of unit, it will be FORCED.
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Re: Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future De

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

Point taken Iluvalar. Thanks.

Still, I'd like to see their control limit raised from 6 to, say, 10.
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