Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

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Verin
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Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Verin » 10 Oct 2010, 03:04

Machine guns take diversity out of the game, nothing can beat them, it has no weakness so everyone uses it at early mid game start.

If you try to counter with cannons, the enemy cyborgs will overtake.

I propose the reduction in multipliers of (AP) type weapons, and an increase of cannons Vs Cyborgs. (all rounder)
Discuss.
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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by KenAlcock » 10 Oct 2010, 05:53

I was just playing Campaign last night and The AI's 10 MG Cyborgs (not Assault Gunners) beat the hell out of my 5 Heavy Cannon Mantis Tracks tanks. That is so unrealistic and out-of-whack it is ridiculous.
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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by alto1234 » 11 Oct 2010, 00:01

Verin wrote:Machine guns take diversity out of the game, nothing can beat them, it has no weakness so everyone uses it at early mid game start.

If you try to counter with cannons, the enemy cyborgs will overtake.

I propose the reduction in multipliers of (AP) type weapons, and an increase of cannons Vs Cyborgs. (all rounder)
Discuss.
this was already partially ameliorated in 2.3.5 rebalance. light cannons aren't supposed to be able to take on cyborgs by themselves, and pure machineguns also does lose against machineguns + cannons or machinguns + rockets. the weakness of pure machineguns is mini rockets and cannons. the new mini rocket line is nice, and mini rockets for their cost no longer become obsolete, or at least as quickly. if you're having problems with an opponent using machineguns/cyborgs frequently, keep pace with him and then use some light cannon cobra tracks (or something.)

keep in mind that if what you proposed was implemented, cannons would become favored. really. assault cannon already mops up cyborgs, to say nothing about TAC.

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Zarel » 11 Oct 2010, 00:07

Verin wrote:Machine guns take diversity out of the game, nothing can beat them, it has no weakness so everyone uses it at early mid game start.

If you try to counter with cannons, the enemy cyborgs will overtake.

I propose the reduction in multipliers of (AP) type weapons, and an increase of cannons Vs Cyborgs. (all rounder)
Discuss.
Proposed solution:

- AR to cyborg multiplier increased to 70%
- Heavy Machinegun prerequisites increased to APDSB Mk3
- MRP damage increased to 27, ROF decreased to 50
- MRA damage increased to 35
- Lancer damage increased to 110
KenAlcock wrote:I was just playing Campaign last night and The AI's 10 MG Cyborgs (not Assault Gunners) beat the hell out of my 5 Heavy Cannon Mantis Tracks tanks. That is so unrealistic and out-of-whack it is ridiculous.
Campaign is campaign, blame Pumpkin if the balance is weird, or wait for me to rebalance it. Cannons are still on 1.10 balance, so cannons are AT. AT to cyborg has historically been weaker than AP to tank.

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by alto1234 » 11 Oct 2010, 00:11

Zarel wrote: - AR to cyborg multiplier increased to 70%
no, too high in late game, super cannon cyborgs become omnipotent. slight increase in splash of LC might be better
Zarel wrote: - Heavy Machinegun prerequisites increased to APDSB Mk3
good
Zarel wrote:- MRP damage increased to 27, ROF decreased to 50
good
Zarel wrote:- MRA damage increased to 35
MRA is already where it should be if not slightly overpowered, just leave it
Zarel wrote:- Lancer damage increased to 110
unnecessary and unrelated to t0-t1, let's not make lancers overpowered again

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Zarel » 11 Oct 2010, 00:44

alto1234 wrote:no, too high in late game, super cannon cyborgs become omnipotent. slight increase in splash of LC might be better
That's already planned and you know it.
alto1234 wrote:MRA is already where it should be if not slightly overpowered, just leave it
Fine.
alto1234 wrote:unnecessary and unrelated to t0-t1, let's not make lancers overpowered again
It's proportionate to the MRP change. Not enough people are using the rocket line. It's one of the major three! Lancers shouldn't be underpowered.

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by alto1234 » 11 Oct 2010, 01:01

Zarel wrote:
alto1234 wrote:no, too high in late game, super cannon cyborgs become omnipotent. slight increase in splash of LC might be better
That's already planned and you know it.
^^
Zarel wrote:
alto1234 wrote:unnecessary and unrelated to t0-t1, let's not make lancers overpowered again
It's proportionate to the MRP change. Not enough people are using the rocket line. It's one of the major three! Lancers shouldn't be underpowered.
increase lancer damage, decrease accuracy by ~10%?
also: because of our prior conversation i set out to play a game with all rockets against a respectable player. my build order comprised lab, fac, fac, lab, cc or something like that, the first lab went straight for rockets, the second lab went for half tracks and then pmod. i slaughtered the mg wheels that got thrown at me by staying just out of range, and then used sufficient numbers to defeat the twin mg thrown at me. lastly, mra half track wheels and later mra hover cobras were used effectively to put down cyborg uprisings. i'd say it was a success, but that different strategies on the part of my opponent would have allowed him to win. no chance of course for him had i used machineguns in combination with rockets instead of just rockets.

i actually think mrp's projectile speed should be reduced somewhat. mra needs to be able to fire downwards to deal with cyborgs that are coming ever closer...

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by TVR » 11 Oct 2010, 06:23

Verin wrote:... If you try to counter with cannons, the enemy cyborgs will overtake. ...
The entire point of real-time strategy games is to use combined-arms, many a foolish player has fallen into the pitfall of producing only hard counters to the opponent's current units.
Scissors wrote:Rock is OP, but Paper is perfectly balanced...
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Verin wrote:... Machine guns take diversity out of the game ...
They are the early game bread-and-butter turret, which by definition have no glaring weaknesses, but no glaring strengths either.

Please do consider mixing unit types, 80% MG + 20% Mini-pod or Flamer will be much more effective against more targets than 100% MG. <- Including against 100% MG spam.

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by alto1234 » 11 Oct 2010, 16:34

TVR wrote:
Scissors wrote:Rock is OP, but Paper is perfectly balanced...
:lol2:
TVR wrote:
Verin wrote:... Machine guns take diversity out of the game ...
They are the early game bread-and-butter turret, which by definition have no glaring weaknesses, but no glaring strengths either.

Please do consider mixing unit types, 80% MG + 20% Mini-pod or Flamer will be much more effective against more targets than 100% MG. <- Including against 100% MG spam.
double true

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Verin » 12 Oct 2010, 03:23

Zarel wrote:
- AR to cyborg multiplier increased to 70%
- Heavy Machinegun prerequisites increased to APDSB Mk3
- MRP damage increased to 27, ROF decreased to 50
- MRA damage increased to 35
- Lancer damage increased to 110
I like. :ninja:
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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Axel » 18 Oct 2010, 18:05

alto1234,TVR, and others!!! you are dont understand the trouble with machine guns!!! MR dont have advantage vs mg (heavy) because mgs already hi upgraded if you are use rockets or flamers that yours mgs are more weak then enemyes!!! Flamers are useless vs mgs because they lower range and less HP!!! After heavy mg people go ass gun, if you beat off allready and dont have ass gun nothing can help you (lancer to, see ranges and hp)!!only way beat ass gun is tank killer or ground shaker, but you cant have it early ass gun!!! You re cant build defence vs mg because mg do very hi damage to bunkers or hard points. only real way to defeat mgs - have more mgs units and more upgraded then enemy!!! (lancers can help you but not give to you victory)

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Jorzi » 18 Oct 2010, 20:42

cannon-mortar combo is pretty effective against mg, as is rocket-flamer
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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by alto1234 » 18 Oct 2010, 21:17

Axel wrote:you are dont understand the trouble with machine guns!!!
trouble?
oh we got trouble!!!!
Axel wrote:Flamers are useless vs mgs because they lower range and less HP!!!
more damage for less money too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Axel wrote:After heavy mg people go ass gun,
ass gun? never seen one in game
Axel wrote:if you beat off allready
none of your business jack
Axel wrote:early ass gun!!!
early ass-gun?
Axel wrote:You re cant build defence vs mg because mg do very hi damage to bunkers or hard points.
false

as a final word... this will clear up your doubts.

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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Jorzi » 18 Oct 2010, 21:27

alto1234 wrote:early ass-gun?
I thought about that too, but he propably means assault gun
Anyway, machineguns are only effective when used in large numbers. They have pretty mediocre range, too.
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Re: Weapon balance favors machineguns (AP type)

Post by Verin » 19 Oct 2010, 03:10

Mg's are also VERY effective Vs bunkers. (compared to other weapons) The flamer will melt a bunker, the bunker buster will kill it too, but no one uses it.

Main point:
Mgs have TOO MUCH HP
TOO MUCH DPS (fire rate)
TOO CHEAP - fast production
Research is TOO EASY!!!
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