successor for Bunker Buster

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
TVR
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by TVR »

3drts wrote:... and projectile B travels twice as fast to the target ...
In that case, it is not valid as the 20 degree firing solution, as there is only one possible velocity that would allow a 20 degree launch elevation to impact a certain spot.

Which would mean the launch elevation would have to be reduced even further to allow a higher velocity, thus it can no longer be classified as 'indirect-fire'.
3drts wrote:... its just a matter of the granule size and heating wave that determines when all the propellant has decomposed into hot gasses. ...
You forgot granule shape, which determines any changes in reaction rate.

I really, really recommend at least glancing at the composition of the M4A2 'White Bag' propellant'.
At full capability, the rail gun will be able to fire a projectile more than 200 nautical miles ...
Note that distances given in nautical miles usually indicate the projectile spending most of its time travelling over the sea, which is flat...
... at a muzzle velocity of mach seven and impacting its target at mach five.
... and therefore can be fired at extremely low angles, which is further reinforced by this quote giving elevation-from-sea-level-dependent mach number as a velocity, instead of m/s.

The difference in muzzle versus impact energy is indeed exponential, as reaching Mach 7 requires twice the energy of Mach 5, and creates much more than just twice the heat.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by 3drts »

TVR wrote:
3drts wrote:... and projectile B travels twice as fast to the target ...
In that case, it is not valid as the 20 degree firing solution, as there is only one possible velocity that would allow a 20 degree launch elevation to impact a certain spot. Which would mean the launch elevation would have to be reduced even further to allow a higher velocity, thus it can no longer be classified as 'indirect-fire'.
This is one of the stupider attempts to justify your position.
Go back and look at what I wrote, 20 degrees has nothing to do with this. And even if it did, it would just mean the 20 degree indirect fire arc would just impact farther away, so its simply longer range indirect fire. btw railgun velocity is easily adjusted.
Unless at maximum range, there are always two firing solutions anyway. If a <20 degree firing solution works, so to does a firing solution >45 degrees (of course the gun would need to be capable of that elevation).
But the main thing is, what I wrong was merely a case where a big change in initial energy, did not result in a large change in final energy, that was the only point, and your argument about trajectories is just asinine.
3drts wrote:... its just a matter of the granule size and heating wave that determines when all the propellant has decomposed into hot gasses. ...
You forgot granule shape, which determines any changes in reaction rate.
Of course, that also determines it to.
The powder is not all used at once, but there is still a definite peak pressure, and a definite maximum velocity.
For very high velocities, railguns have clear theoretical advantages, and it has nothing to do with a higher peak acceleration.
At full capability, the rail gun will be able to fire a projectile more than 200 nautical miles ...
Note that distances given in nautical miles usually indicate the projectile spending most of its time travelling over the sea, which is flat...
Who cares, its a ship, which currently is the smallest system these railguns can be mounted on. Of course they will give the distances in nautical terms, if it is a nautical system.
... at a muzzle velocity of mach seven and impacting its target at mach five.
... and therefore can be fired at extremely low angles, which is further reinforced by this quote giving elevation-from-sea-level-dependent mach number as a velocity, instead of m/s.
Unless your gun is going to be firing at airborne targets, the difference is irrelevant. It is fired from sea level, and it is currently intended for sea level or coastal targets.
Also note that the speed of sound varies according to temperature as well. I assure you, the navy gives numbers in actual velocity, not mach number. For articles and such, mach sounds more impressive. You are grasping at straws.

The difference in muzzle versus impact energy is indeed exponential, as reaching Mach 7 requires twice the energy of Mach 5, and creates much more than just twice the heat.[/quote]
This is not even one order of magnitude, and mach 5 still is plenty fast for a kinetic kill.
Furthermore, you specified velocity, not energy.

So in reality, your earlier point about:
Trying to fire a un-powered projectile exceeding those ranges, pneumatically or magnetically accelerated, would require an unfeasible amount of energy, as the muzzle velocity would have to be exponentially greater than the impact velocity.
is still wrong.
The energy varies as a square of the velocity, there is no significant exponential variance in the velocity.


Now lets consider how long it takes to travel 150-200 nautical miles (i will just use 200, and the shorter mile, not nautical mile, and the speed of sound at STP, and an average speed of mach 6), as an approximation. 200 miles/(762*6) = 0.044 hour flight time -> 157 second flight time.
so 78.5 seconds it spends ascending.
x=1/2 at^2. 1/2a = 16 ft/sec^2, t^2=6162 1/2at^2 = 98,000 feet.
Thats how high the projectile goes. That is more than high enough to fire over a mountain range between the ship and its target.
It should also be noted the air resistance up that high, is much lower, making any simple claim about Muzzle velocity vs impact velocity equations, false.
The equations are complex, as air resistance does not vary linearly with altitude, higher velocities allow for higher max altitudes, etc.


The reality is rail guns can hit a target around 200 km away, in 2-3 minutes, reaching elevations of nearly 100,000 feet, and are more than capable of kinetic kills.



Furthermore, this is a game, so your arguments about why there shouldn't be gauss artillery based on reality are doubly flawed.
1) Realistically, gauss naval artillery is already in the works.
2) Its a game, so it doesn't matter if its not realistic.
I think gameplay would be improved, as if one expects the game to go to end T3 tech, its not necessarily a race down the rocket/missile tree to get the only T3 artillery system.
As T2 has 2 types of artillery (ripples vs Howitzers), I think there should be more than one T3 artillery type.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by TVR »

3drts wrote:... btw railgun velocity is easily adjusted ...
Reducing the muzzle velocity goes completely against the point of high-velocity kinetic kill.
3drts wrote:... 200 miles/(762*6) = 0.044 hour flight time -> 157 second flight time ...
(I just don't understand why gravity and angle aren't factored into travel time)
3drts wrote:... Unless at maximum range, there are always two firing solutions anyway. If a <20 degree firing solution works, so to does a firing solution >45 degrees ...
(The higher firing angle is merely 90 degrees minus the lower firing angle, so the second solution is >70, not >45)

But otherwise, the higher firing angle simply unusable at hyper-velocity, projectile travel time is roughly 3x longer than direct-fire, and the effect of drag is much more severe.
3drts wrote:... Furthermore, this is a game, so your arguments about why there shouldn't be gauss artillery based on reality are doubly flawed. ...
This is incredibly hypocritical.

Do you even understand the implications of having a 20+ km minimum engagement range OR 3 minute travel time for coil/rail artillery, in game which features tactical combat to 6 km at max?

Or would you arbitrarily set the stats as to make it exactly like a howitzer- except with better range, damage, and probably splash?
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by 3drts »

Reducing the muzzle velocity goes completely against the point of high-velocity kinetic kill.
Depends on the reduction in velocity.
If you fire at mach 7, and hit at mach 5 at one range, for a closer range, you can fire at mach 6 and hit at mach 5.
And indirect fire weapons often can be used as direct fire, but not vice versa (such as a 7.62mm mg)
Furthermore I've stated multiple times, the projectile need not be kinetic kill, much like a tank cannon, you could have a variety of projectiles: a tank cannon may fire DU kinetic kill sabots, or explosive rounds, etc.
(I just don't understand why gravity and angle aren't factored into travel time)
They are, directly and indirectly.
Angle is not given by the Navy. What is given is projectile speed, and range, you can get an estimate of the angle.
Because the time to cover the 200km is a function of the cosine of the anlge multiplied by the velocity, what I gave was an underestimation of travel time.
Gravity was factored in when I consider that the projectile is accelerating downward the whole time, thus by accounting for gravity, I made an estimate of the height reached by the projectile, and it is indeed an underestimation, making this projectile even more "indirect"
(The higher firing angle is merely 90 degrees minus the lower firing angle, so the second solution is >70, not >45)
>70 is >45, but not vice versa.
Again, one must factor in air resistance and non linear air resistance at a given projectile height, which with railguns (and ballistic missiles) becomes very relevant, and on these minor points I am just being very general.
I didn't want to be more specific, and thus wrong - as I can see you will nitpick.
For example, you were specific enough that I can nitpick and say you were wrong:
the higher firing angle simply unusable at hyper-velocity, projectile travel time is roughly 3x longer than direct-fire, and the effect of drag is much more severe.
3x is arbitrary, the difference between a 40 and a 50 degree trajectory is nowhere near that severe, and the difference between a 1 and 89 degree trajectory is orders of magnitude higher, unless you were specifically referring to 20 and 70, in which case it close to 3.
But Again, you forget to take into account varying atmospheric thickness.
If I have a super high velocity round, that can hit a target very far away with only a 5 degree elevation, then almost its entire flight path occurs within the dense lower atmosphere.
At 100,000 feet (the altitude the navy projectile will reach), air resistance is 1/100th of that at sea level.
At 300,000 feet (we are talking a really long range projectile here), air resistance is 1/100,000 of that at sea level.
furthermore, gravity slows the projectile, on the upward arc, making the average velocity lower, and air resistance varies as a square of velocity (note that gravity will start adding to the projectiles velocity once it reaches the apex of its trajectory).
So the average force of drag on the projectile is less on the higher angle trajectory.
But of course, the energy lost is a factor of force x distance, and this can result in very complex equations.
Do you even understand the implications of having a 20+ km minimum engagement range OR 3 minute travel time for coil/rail artillery, in game which features tactical combat to 6 km at max?
I never said such a thing should be implemented like that.
I have a questions what is your basis for scale?
If we judge simple by guessing based on the size of a 7.62 mg or a 88mm hpv turret in game, we must conclude all weapons are ridiculously under ranged.
Consider the travel time of current rocket artillery, it is much longer than what we see in game.

As to hypocritical:
I never said we should put gauss artillery in, as if it had realistic limitations.
You understand many indirect fire weapons cannot be elevated or depressed sufficiently to function in close range, and thus have minimum ranges, but we don't see that in game).
Nor do I agree that railgun artillery would have a 20km minimum engagement range (again, indirect fire can function as direct fire at short range, but conversely most direct fire cannot function as indirect at long range).

However, you seemed to make realism arguments about putting it in the game, rather than gameplay arguments, I merely addressed those arguments.

So yes, in game, it would be very much like a long range Howitzer. I would not be opposed to a minimum range of a few tiles, I would give it either higher damage or ROF, though I don't think it should have any higher splash.
As I have said before, I'm thinking of an End game Hellstorm replacement.
I would keep the same splash as the hellstorm, put the range at about 13,000 (less than the archangel range of 15, just as the GS has a range of 10k, and ripples have 11k), and set the damage and ROF such that it has a 20% better DPS than archangels.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Makary »

If I remember correctly, there was "Bunker Blaster" rocket in old WZ that needed BB to research with inceased damage and further decrease ROF.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Verin »

I have the ps version, I don't think there is such version.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Zarel »

An upgraded bunker buster weapon existed in 1.11/1.12 (which were mods, not official versions), you may have been thinking of those..
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Verin »

So will this ever be done? i just played a game today where we got to T3 research levels. I had a bunch of cannon fortresse and this guy attacks me with 20-30 bunker buster tiger hovers.

It took at least 8 tanks to heavily damage the fortress, the other 22 were destroyed before they could fire.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by TVR »

3drts wrote:... Furthermore I've stated multiple times, the projectile need not be kinetic kill, much like a tank cannon, you could have a variety of projectiles: a tank cannon may fire DU kinetic kill sabots, or explosive rounds, etc. ...
This is one of the most important crucial differences between pressure-based cannon barrels and railgun/coilgun barrels.

A railgun barrel is essentially a rectangular prism with a very small caliber tube in the center, while the coilgun barrel is designed to be larger in caliber than the projectile, as it operation is contactless.

Now compared to the standard cylindrical tube of a pressure-based cannon, the railgun caliber is too small to deliver a shock-sensitive payload. If the payload is behind of the magnetic slug, the projectile will pull itself apart from the tensile force on the thin casing of the shock-sensitive payload. If it's in front, the compressive force will either detonate an explosive payload, or completely deform the thin casing. If it is inside the accelerated portion, then the limited volume inside the insulated ferromagnetic casing drastically limits the total payload to something absolutely uncompetitive with a pressure-based cannon. Not to mention that these rounds would cost an unreasonable amount for their effectiveness, and like all rail projectiles, melt the rail assembly after every shot.

The coilgun barrel seems slightly more feasible, however, the cost of a hyper-velocity linear motor array increases nearly exponentially compared to the length, and the payload must be contained within the projectile itself, again, greatly limiting the amount of payload delivered for the money & shot.

As both of these propulsion methods therefore rely on un-powered high-velocity kinetic kill similar to an APFSDS round, guidance system are too shock-sensitive to use, just like APFSDS rounds.

In conclusion, the railgun/coilgun is too specialized as a direct-fire anti-tank/anti-aircraft gun to be used as artillery on a tactical scale.
3drts wrote:... But Again, you forget to take into account varying atmospheric thickness ...
Irrelevant, non-uniform atmospheric density does not decrease projectile travel time.
3drts wrote:... Nor do I agree that railgun artillery would have a 20km minimum engagement range ...
The 20+ km engagement range is for a non-LOS target, which is quite common given the geography of Warzone 2100 maps.

In conclusion, the railgun/coilgun is too specialized as a direct-fire anti-tank/anti-aircraft gun to be used as artillery on a tactical scale.
3drts wrote:... what is your basis for scale? ...
Given 25 metres per length of a grid square, this leads to the Ripple Rockets sharing the exact same range of the TOS-1 MLRS

Image

Which is a tactical anti-structure fire support weapon.
3drts wrote:... I would keep the same splash as the hellstorm, put the range at about 13,000 (less than the archangel range of 15, just as the GS has a range of 10k, and ripples have 11k), and set the damage and ROF such that it has a 20% better DPS than archangels ...
All the howitzers are designed to be defencive artillery, therefore basing the DPS of this new howitzer on the siege artillery is meaningless.

EDIT: I just realized the old Angel missile launcher had suspiciously similar stats to this new howitzer...
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by 3drts »

This is getting silly
A railgun barrel is essentially a rectangular prism with a very small caliber tube in the center
There is nothing that dictates it must be a rectangular projectile, nor nothing that dictates a maximum caliber.
All that is required, is that the barrel be composed of two parts (normally rails) with current flowing from one part, through the projectile, to the other part.
The simples way is to use 2 flat rails, and a projectile with two flat faces. Nothing prevents a weaponized variant from having two concave rails and a projectile with a circular cross section.
Also, when all one wants to do is demonstrate the high muzzle velocities attainable, there is no point in using a large caliber.
You mistake crude prototypes showing the concept, for an actual refined weapon.
... shock-sensitive payload. If it's in front, the compressive force will either detonate an explosive payload, or completely deform the thin casing.
*sigh* Again, the peak pressures on pressure based cannons are higher than those of rail guns. Rail guns exert a constant force, cannons do not, rail guns have really really long barrels (which is why the only current military applications being looked into are ship based), cannons do not.
If you get 2x the velocity with a 4x length barrel, how are you going to claim a projectile that works in the 1/4th length barrel won't work in the long barrel?
Not to mention that these rounds would cost an unreasonable amount for their effectiveness, and like all rail projectiles, melt the rail assembly after every shot.
The projectiles themselves are much cheaper than rockets and missiles.
Replacing the rails after every shot (or I think now they are up to every 10 shots), is another story.
They are working on ways to reduce this. Early gunpowder had problems with barrel corrosion. Early high velocity rounds had problems with warping the barrel after a few shots, etc.
A futuristic weapon may have solved the problems railguns are facing now.
Arcing is the major problem, with the rails melting due to the extreme arcing.
Some things they are working on include a thin layer of "electrolyte paste" coating the projectile, such that current can flow, without the projectile contacting the barrel directly.
Materials more resistant to melting/arcing, etc.
ferromagnetic casing
Note that a ferromagnetic casing is only needed for coilguns. A railgun only requires the projectile conducts current.
unidirectional conductors (such as carbon nanotubes) could work, and because of the directionality, would also help solve the arcing problem, as does keeping the barrel in a near vacuum state.

Need we go over all the problems with lasers currently? I think not, its a game set in the future, that takes a lot of creative license given the future setting.
Irrelevant, non-uniform atmospheric density does not decrease projectile travel time.
I never said it did, however, it does decrease the energy lost by the projectile due to drag.
Terminal velocity at 100,000 feet is a lot higher than at 100 feet.
If you fired a projectile up to 300,000 feet, it would fall really really fast through the thin atmosphere.
It would only be travelling through about the equivalent of 50,000 feet or less of atmosphere at sea level, so in this trajectory (nearly straight up), the energy lost to drag would be about equivalent to the energy lost in a "direct fire" shot 10 miles away.
KE kills would still be viable, even if fired at high angles, as the energy lost due to drag is quite small due to most of the projectile arc being in exceedingly thin atmosphere.


Anyway, as I said, this is getting silly, I will speak no more of the real life limitations of rail guns. It seems exceedingly silly when we have pulse lasers, laser satellites, and huge concrete fortresses in an age of gauss cannons.
EDIT: I just realized the old Angel missile launcher had suspiciously similar stats to this new howitzer...
Well, the Current archangel has stats similar to the old angel. The old archangel had a 25k range.
The biggest difference between what I want, and the Angel/Archangel, is the firing interval.
I want a non-salvo fire T-3 artillery that can fire at least several times per minute.
Currently, Archangels fire roughly once every 30 seconds, to once every 20 seconds, depending on upgrades.
I'd like to see something that fires once every 5-10 seconds depending on upgrades - the old angel wasn't anything like this (nor did it have much splash to speak of).

Speaking to the gameplay, there is only one T-3 artillery turret, and this leads to a race for the already overpowered (in some ways) Rocket/missile line.

Many of the complaints I see online about the Rocket/missile line, is that there are no separate upgrades.
By upgrading rockets, you upgrade: Direct fire weapons, AA weapons, and Artillery weapons.
Same for missiles, and when you add the MRL and seraph, you get anti borg and structure weapons too.

Now look at the cannon line:
The artillery it leads to: mortars, howitzers
Mortars you upgrade separately
Howitzers you upgrade separately

Now they finally threw in AA, and some people don't like that you now get AA upgrades "for free" (consider the MG line, its upgrades don't apply to the AA guns).

If the game doesn't end in a relatively early rush, you can't avoid the rocket/missile line.
Many ignore cannons and gauss completely (its also worth noting how much better missile forts are- their range is ridiculous, and they are AA as well).

I think gauss artillery would make going cannons-> rails more viable over rockets-> missiles.
Though in T-1 to T-2, you would still need to take the side path mortar-> howitzers to compete with ripples - which will always be available before ground shakers, which are really the only howitzers that can compete with ripples on large maps where range matters, unless your early rush stagnated, and you just established a forward position where you can build howitzers (the basic 105mm, not the 155mm ground shaker) within range of their entire base.

Or it could be a "tack on" to the howitzer line, the way the "plasma cannon" is a T-3 "tack on" to the cannon line.
Make the "gauss artillery" line use howitzer upgrades, and have Ground shaker and gauss cannon as a requirement.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by TVR »

3drts wrote:... There is nothing that dictates it must be a rectangular projectile, nor nothing that dictates a maximum caliber. ...
But, I never mentioned that the projectile would be rectangular, just that outer barrel appears as a rectangular prism, with a small caliber (diameter) cylindrical tube in the center.
3drts wrote:... If you get 2x the velocity with a 4x length barrel, how are you going to claim a projectile that works in the 1/4th length barrel won't work in the long barrel? ...
Since the projectile is less than 1/4 the diameter, pressure (on the payload) is multiplied by 4^2.
3drts wrote:... before ground shakers, which are really the only howitzers that can compete with ripples on large maps where range matters ...
The point of the game isn't to min-max into separate but equal weapon trees in order to out-gun one's adversaries, but rather to out-maneuver them, and in doing so, creating situations where one's weapons are against an appropriate target, while their weapons are not.
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Makary »

Zarel wrote:An upgraded bunker buster weapon existed in 1.11/1.12 (which were mods, not official versions), you may have been thinking of those..
ah yes, Bunker Blaster was a borg equipped with light version of BB :D
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Re: successor for Bunker Buster

Post by Verin »

3darts and tvr killed this thread, you guys should take your pointless conversation to private messages.
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