Researching Defenses takes overly long, which is illogical.

[Kacen]

I've realized that it doesn't make logical sense that it takes so freaking long to research some defenses, that is hardpoints/bunkers/emplacements/towers/etc.

Researching a defense is, essentially, figuring out how to rig a weapon or sensor that you already researched to a non-mobile defensive platform, such as an emplacement, bunker, hardpoint, or tower, which you even by mid T1 know how to do. Most late-game defenses at least (I haven't played tech 1 in a long time so I do not remember), take overly long and a whole lot of resources to research, at least more resources than they should, which doesn't make any sense.

How hard is it to figure out how to mount a weapon on, say, a hardpoint or bunker? Shouldn't take long at all, and definitely shouldn't cost a lot to research it. Once you spend a long time researching, for instance, a pulse laser you have the technology, and no new technology is really needed to make a tower or emplacement for it. If you already know how to make a, say, tower, and you just researched how to make a, say, pulse laser, why so much research time to put them together? Not hard at all. Nothing new involved.

So my proposal is this: the research of any defensive point should take a minimal amount of time and be of minimal cost. OR, this may be pushing it, perhaps one should not need to research the defense at all, having it once the turret itself is researched? If the latter would be implemented I propose early on in the game researching something like defenses in general (towers, hardpoints, etc), from then on you have the technology and know-how to make defenses.

There would of course be exceptions for ether of these proposals, such as defense-only weapons like EMP Mortars, and also any type of Fortress.

[new paradigm leader]

that shouldnt be too difficult if you play skirmish then go into research.txt usehttp://developer.wz2100.net/wiki/TxtEditing to help you make the defences research cheaper and faster etc myself i dont mind if im playing single player in skirmish i Cheat for a laugh i use scav bunkers to guard my base

[Tenoh]

I think the whole research tree should be reworked to be more realistic and logical.

[Zarel]

Meh. Some defenses took longer to research than the weapon they're based on. The old Hyper Velocity Cannon hardpoint comes to mind. It's mostly for balance reasons - hardpoints are pretty powerful.

I've been decreasing the defenses that do take overly long, though - current HVC hardpoint takes about half as long as it used to (and is half as expensive). Can you give me a list of structures you think should go faster and be cheaper than they currently are?

[XboxJosh]

Can you give me a list of structures you think should go faster and be cheaper than they currently are?

Yeah. The wide spectrum sensor tower, especially......

Maybe the Plasmite and Inferno bunkers, too. Aren't they just re-worked versions of the flamer bunker?

[winsrp]

i believe that all hardpoints, towers, bunkers, etc, should take the same time all toguether, since we have already put most of the resources and time into the weapon research itself. Maybe only the 2x2 defenses should take longer since they are innovative, and not just a copy of the tower and the turrert you have already investigated.

There should be a tower builder section where you could research the base you want, and map it up with the turrets you have already researched. that would make it much more interesting. (I know... keep wishing..)

[Avestron]

Perhaps the solution to this problem would be a transference of cost to the actual weapon turrets and the upgrades?

I can see a situation where emplacements, towers, pits, hardcrete bunkers, hardcrete towers, reinforced pits, hardcrete points, and hardcrete fortresses are themselves researched seperately and open up a series of compattible defensive structures.

Through the transference of costs to 1.) turrets, 2.) turret upgrades, and 3.) the new defensive 'bodies' it would not be such a big deal to have the research of, say, hardcrete points to spawn HMG, Cannon, Flamer, Rocket and Lancer points to be available instantaneously - provided that the research for the respective weapon mounts is completed.

Likewise it would not be such a great deal to research fortress-mountable specialty weapons following the research of fortresses (one weapon for each of the trees - cannon/mass driver, Rocket, Missile, Laser (moderate thermal damage, long range, rapid fire), Plasmite (extreme thermal damage - short range), etc.).

- - -

I also think that certain technologies should not quite be phased out but rather become easier to mass-produce (for example - assault guns may gun a heavy machine gun under the table but you could produce a number of heavy machine guns for the price of a single assault gun.

[BulletMagnet]

[...] mid T1 [...] tech 1 [...]

i knew i recognised that name.

but i digress.

anyways; i agree with nerfing research times of defensive structures. maybe even remove the research for some entirely? after all, that's what was done with non-super cyborgs.

[Kacen]

Meh. Some defenses took longer to research than the weapon they're based on. The old Hyper Velocity Cannon hardpoint comes to mind. It's mostly for balance reasons - hardpoints are pretty powerful.

In that case the balancing should be done when constructing the actual hardpoints as opposed to researching them, example being well them taking long to build.

I mean when you think about it it's quite silly. You spend all this time researching, say, a pulse laser and then spend almost the same amount of time "researching" the simple aspect of attaching it to a tower or hardpont, which you've done with numerous other things before.

Like I said, I suggest early on in the game you research the general concepts of towers, hardpoints, bunkers, emplacements, etc and from then on you have the ability to quickly research a weapon's corresponding hardpoint/bunker/whatever once that weapon is researched, or like my other suggestion immediatly acquire the defense once the weapon itself is researched.

My point is literally by early-mid tech 1 you already essentially have the technology of defenses and know how to fit turrets to them, so why research the concept again every time you research a new weapon?

[Kacen]

i believe that all hardpoints, towers, bunkers, etc, should take the same time all toguether, since we have already put most of the resources and time into the weapon research itself. Maybe only the 2x2 defenses should take longer since they are innovative, and not just a copy of the tower and the turrert you have already investigated.

There should be a tower builder section where you could research the base you want, and map it up with the turrets you have already researched. that would make it much more interesting. (I know... keep wishing..)

Well the fortress defenses are unique weapons in themselves (as is the EMP Mortar which cannot be mounted on vehicles), so logically they should take a long time to research as if they were just the weapons themselves, which they are.

[Kacen]

Perhaps the solution to this problem would be a transference of cost to the actual weapon turrets and the upgrades?

I can see a situation where emplacements, towers, pits, hardcrete bunkers, hardcrete towers, reinforced pits, hardcrete points, and hardcrete fortresses are themselves researched seperately and open up a series of compattible defensive structures.

Through the transference of costs to 1.) turrets, 2.) turret upgrades, and 3.) the new defensive 'bodies' it would not be such a big deal to have the research of, say, hardcrete points to spawn HMG, Cannon, Flamer, Rocket and Lancer points to be available instantaneously - provided that the research for the respective weapon mounts is completed.

Likewise it would not be such a great deal to research fortress-mountable specialty weapons following the research of fortresses (one weapon for each of the trees - cannon/mass driver, Rocket, Missile, Laser (moderate thermal damage, long range, rapid fire), Plasmite (extreme thermal damage - short range), etc.).

You've pretty much hit the nail right on the head as to what I was suggesting. Explained it better than I could, too.

I also think that certain technologies should not quite be phased out but rather become easier to mass-produce (for example - assault guns may gun a heavy machine gun under the table but you could produce a number of heavy machine guns for the price of a single assault gun.

I agree.

anyways; i agree with nerfing research times of defensive structures. maybe even remove the research for some entirely? after all, that's what was done with non-super cyborgs.

Precisely!

[Zarel]

In that case the balancing should be done when constructing the actual hardpoints as opposed to researching them, example being well them taking long to build.

This is a very good idea; I will do exactly this.

I also think that certain technologies should not quite be phased out but rather become easier to mass-produce (for example - assault guns may gun a heavy machine gun under the table but you could produce a number of heavy machine guns for the price of a single assault gun.

The problem with this, is that with full machinegun upgrades, a heavy machinegun is a lot more powerful than it is in the earlygame, and nearly as powerful as an assault gun. Because of this, being able to purchase even two HMGs for the price of one AG would make AG completely useless (in fact, we already have this kind of situation with some weapons).

[Kacen]

that shouldnt be too difficult if you play skirmish then go into research.txt usehttp://developer.wz2100.net/wiki/TxtEditing to help you make the defences research cheaper and faster etc myself i dont mind if im playing single player in skirmish i Cheat for a laugh i use scav bunkers to guard my base

Sure I could do it myself, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest it for the Resurrection Project as a whole.

[BulletMagnet]

are five flavours of MG needed? (here, i'm bundling AG's in with MG's)

can we just drop the 2xMG and 2xAG, and space the HMG and AG further along the tech-tree?

[Kacen]

are five flavours of MG needed? (here, i'm bundling AG's in with MG's)

can we just drop the 2xMG and 2xAG, and space the HMG and AG further along the tech-tree?

Mmm...

I disagree with...well, the Twin MG has it's place in the campaign but you use it for a very short window of time before you get the heavy machine gun...

And by the time I can acquire the twin assault gun in skirmish, lasers are pretty much -in-, so to speak.