Idea about research in Multiplayer

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Reg312 »

Hello.

Playing warzone i noticed many games are won just because losing team did research slow.
Only experienced players can do research in proper way.

So issue is: pro-players easily kill newbies just because newbies do research slow.
Beginners forgot to renew research, slowly select research items etc.

i can use any tactics, any weakest weapons, but if enemy did research slow - he lose.
Result: boring games for both sides.

So i have idea how to compensate slow research effect.
When research facility is in idle state it automatically collects "research points".
Next, when player selects research icon then all collected research points are added to progress of selected research item.
But small addition: research points should be collected only for opened researches. in case when player forgot to click some research. not in case when player clicked just discovered research.
hmm it going to be too complex.

Example: your research facility was in idle state 1 minute. You discovered "inferno" but forgot click it (was busy on other things)
You clicked "research inferno" with 4 minutes progress. As result now you started inferno as it was researched 1 minute already.
So when you clicked inferno you have "3 minutes left".

With that feature we will get more balanced and more interesting games.
Warzone players should use his mind, not just fast hands.
!No more wins by fast clicks to research!
User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
Posts: 6226
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by NoQ »

This allows pro players to delay paying for research. Eg. you need money for tank now, so you delay clicking the research before your tank is paid for, but in fact you are already researching it.
User avatar
MaNGusT
Art contributor
Posts: 1152
Joined: 22 Sep 2006, 10:31
Location: Russia

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by MaNGusT »

I think that players still have to remember what they should do to win. So I suggest at least 2x penalty for your suggestion. 1 min of doing nothing in research labs gives you 30 sec bonus for the next research, etc. It will give begginers a chance to win or not to lose without resistance.
Image
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by aubergine »

So if a lab is idle, and there are available techs to research, research points start to accumulate...?

What happens when multiple labs are idle? Do they all accumulate points?

Let's say you have 5 labs, all idle, and a 5 min-to-research tech available.

Then wait 1 minute, you get 5 mins of research points (5 labs * 1 minute). Click the tech and it is instantly researched.

This means player just got a 5 minute tech in 1 minute, by using the combined research points of 5 labs.

EDIT: I like MaNGusT's idea - if a lab is idle for >= 1 minute, it gets 30 seconds reduction on it's next research task. Nice and simple and can't be hacked because the reduction is on a lab by lab basis (and you also lost 30 seconds in that lab as well).
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Reg312 »

NoQ wrote:This allows pro players to delay paying for research. Eg. you need money for tank now, so you delay clicking the research before your tank is paid for, but in fact you are already researching it.
you right. but anyway player spending same money. so effect would be minimal.
in current version you need 100% money to start research. is this good or bad?
may be allow players to research anything. but pay for this at end of progress? :) why not?

@MaNGusT
agreed with penalties.

@aubergine
i meant each lab accumulates research points. not sum of all labs.

Example: to get Heavy Cannon player should research ~20 items.
if he lost 6 seconds on each research selection then he loses 2(!) minutes on heavy cannon.
Players lose games just because they cannot fight and select research fast at same time.
User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
Posts: 6226
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by NoQ »

Maybe accumulate 15 seconds of research at most? This should be enough to remember to click, and not enough to do significant dirty micromanagement.

Show it as a little progress bar at items that could use this bonus.
Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Reg312 »

NoQ wrote:Maybe accumulate 15 seconds of research at most? This should be enough to remember to click, and not enough to do significant dirty micromanagement.

Show it as a little progress bar at items that could use this bonus.
note: this 15 second should be accumulated only for opened research items.
to prevent case when player starts newly opened research with this bonus
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by aubergine »

That sounds terribly complex.
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
User avatar
MaNGusT
Art contributor
Posts: 1152
Joined: 22 Sep 2006, 10:31
Location: Russia

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by MaNGusT »

aubergine wrote:That sounds terribly complex.
Yep, but overall idea is very good. WZ's research tree is complex too, so there should be some more options to help new players in beginning.
Image
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by aubergine »

Yes, but I'm just thinking is there a less crufty way to do it?

What you proposed seemed a lot simpler:

* if a lab is idle, for more than a minute, subtract X seconds from the next thing it researches

That way there's no need to work out or store what techs were available when the lab went idle, and it still encourages players to keep their labs busy at all times because it's not too much of an advantage.
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Emdek »

Interesting idea, but I would put additional limit in form of maximum percentage progress, like you may skip at most 30% of research time of each item (distributing accumulated time to each next item). Ideally it would give only speedup for such researched item, so progress bar won't start at 30% level etc. That way it would look more natural. :-)
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

@Reg312: Sounds similar to how Supreme Commander 2 handles research, by having players gradually accumulate research points (build more labs or participate in more combat to accumulate them faster), then spending them in order to unlock upgrades and new units and structures. Am I right?
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by aubergine »

@Emdek, yes, good idea!
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1828
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by Iluvalar »

the price of a research lab is not significant. Having one research lab empty should not be a major problem.

The problem you really try to adress is noobs not spending their power in good time and having reserves without short term objective (like delaying the next body a minute or two). Such noobs could also forget to build units, to build defensive structures or infrastructure.

And the answer to all those problems is to give an interest rate just slightly less effective than actual research just like in NRS. That's the best option as it couldn't be abused in any possible way.

Another solution is to make unused buildings slowly upgrade themself by draining a very small amount of power to the player. So when your noob will finaly remember that he have a lab, he might research at 125% the normal speed or something.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58
Contact:

Re: Idea about research in Multiplayer

Post by aubergine »

That's the first time the NRS power interest rate has made sense to me. While it certainly offsets the noob issues you mentioned, it doesn't seem to deal with the fact that their research is going to lag behind their more experienced counterparts.

I'm not keen on idea of buildings slowly upgrading themselves.

Maybe we need a bit of both: Small interest rate on power (capped, and with no explanation for it, I would hate for any sort of "Bank" concept to exist in post-Collapse world) and idle lab gets a little time speedup for the next thing it researches (amount depends on time idle, but capped).

Ideally the player should not notice effects of interest or research speedup, the game shouldn't start to feel weird as a noob gets more experienced.
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
Post Reply