Remove random oil drums?

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NoQ
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Remove random oil drums?

Post by NoQ » 19 Dec 2012, 18:14

They are known to add too much uncontrolled randomness and luck into some multiplayer games, specially 1x1s, while nobody really bothers to consider them anyway. I mean, the ones that randomly appear on the map.

Probably it's a good idea to add an option instead (since we have room for it after removing the fog of war option): no drums/only pre-placed drums/spawn random drums (icon ideas: a drum crossed out, a drum, three small drums).

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aubergine
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by aubergine » 19 Dec 2012, 18:22

For random drums maybe a sort of sparkle around the drum (and slightly tilt the drum) to make it look like it's appearing by magic?
drums.png
very rough mockup
drums.png (2.73 KiB) Viewed 4021 times
Hrm, ok, maybe multiple drums for the random option?
drum-random.png
drum-random.png (915 Bytes) Viewed 4021 times
The setting could then be exposed to JS API via drumType global: DRUM_NONE, DRUM_MAP, DRUM_RANDOM

rules.js could be in charge of removing map-placed barrels if DRUM_NONE, or placing random barrels if DRUM_RANDOM.

Challenge ini files should also get a drumType setting in their main section so challenges can specify what drum mode to use.
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Per
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Per » 19 Dec 2012, 18:31

I agree about removing oil drums.

However, there is currently no space in the pregame dialog, after the host game and structure limits buttons were moved from the side and into the main dialog...

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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Reg312 » 19 Dec 2012, 18:42

yes! remove oil drums.

btw, who dared to include random oil drums in the game?
Per wrote:I agree about removing oil drums.

However, there is currently no space in the pregame dialog, after the host game and structure limits buttons were moved from the side and into the main dialog...
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Iluvalar » 19 Dec 2012, 21:14

No ! increase the oil drums !

1- Have them work by size on the map; Small map tend to have too much drums while we never see on in huge maps.
2- Have that oil density moddable or selectable in another tab like limit screen. No just moddable and work on mod support (select and dl like maps) instead of that tab. (much more the same amount of work)
3- Have the oil quantity per drum in function.txt and make it upgradable !


If we increase the amount of drums, it wont be really "random" anymore. The bell curve will come in reinforcement :D . Than we could design maps that could incorporate spatial control and much as derrick control. I'm 100% sure that this could make some good game mode as well.
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by aubergine » 19 Dec 2012, 21:51

If oil drum placement is moved to rules.js, and there is option to select how much oil is in drum, then we can do plenty of stuff with them.

If a new global, gameType, was added, either being CAMPAIGN, SKIRMISH (plus CHALLENGE if possible) or MULTIPLAYER, then all sorts of configurations could be made based on:

* gameType
* powerType
* maxPlayers
* scavengers
* derrickPositions.length
* mapHeight, mapWidth
* startPositions

I like Iluvalar's idea about the possibility of oil drums being the primary source of power, that could certainly generate some interesting scenarios.
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Rman Virgil » 20 Dec 2012, 03:12

aubergine wrote:If oil drum placement is moved to rules.js, and there is option to select how much oil is in drum, then we can do plenty of stuff with them.

If a new global, gameType, was added, either being CAMPAIGN, SKIRMISH (plus CHALLENGE if possible) or MULTIPLAYER, then all sorts of configurations could be made based on:

* gameType
* powerType
* maxPlayers
* scavengers
* derrickPositions.length
* mapHeight, mapWidth
* startPositions
+ 1
I like Iluvalar's idea about the possibility of oil drums being the primary source of power, that could certainly generate some interesting scenarios.
+ 1

Side Note: I experimented a while ago in my "ManGodAi4x" project with creating a particular type of warfare Center of Gravity - Oil Drum Depots that were only accessable by air and were big enough to rebuild an HQ base of Ops (within geologic calderas). A simple fly-over would claim the entire depot. Ground units built within were readily defended till they were transported (or air-lifted) to maneuver positions elsewhere. This was also one means I used to balance asymmetric, coop, maps were one team member could focus on Eagle Supremacy. All told, in my LAN club testing, this opened game play to entirely fresh, & interesting, MP possibilities. Of course, this type of Oil Drum usuage I think could only fall within the purview of a map maker's design execution.
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by effigy » 21 Dec 2012, 04:53

I would not miss random oil drums.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by aubergine » 21 Dec 2012, 12:47

I'd miss them, but only at the start of very low oil no-bases skirmish games.
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Mr T » 28 Dec 2012, 00:37

Have a suggestion for "space", where to put the "drum" icon. look at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10440

Also wonder if it shouldn't it be a "amount" funktion also ? The oil drums is okej to take in the beginning, but later on, in the game, they are to small (aren't they?).
A function how big, if they should expand in the game or be 100% of your total amount of oil ?

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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by NoQ » 28 Dec 2012, 06:57

Iluvalar wrote:If we increase the amount of drums, it wont be really "random" anymore. The bell curve will come in reinforcement
Hmm, just curious: did you try to estimate how quickly we will see the bell curve? How many oil drums per minute do we need to make the game fair on a usual map, how much power will we be getting from oil drums when it gets close to fair?

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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Iluvalar » 28 Dec 2012, 17:36

Well, the ready made only model I have is not similar to the model we use in the game.

But I could say that if a player had 60 potential oil drums on his half with a 50% chance to appear. There would be less than 2% chance that a given playe get 50% more power from it. In 10% of the chances, that players would get 26,9% more energy. He have 25% of the chances to have 13% or more power which mean that half of the games will be played with players in betweens that 13%.

I guess we are not so far from a nice bell curve. Doubling the drums and reducing the value by half would make a very good start.
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by aubergine » 28 Dec 2012, 18:45

There's also the issue of drums being placed in inacessible locations (like single tile of flat land surrounded by inaccessible cliff tiles).
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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by NoQ » 28 Dec 2012, 18:49

Yeah, that's the next step to improve the model. Also, accessible locations that nobody cares to check. Also, oil drums that appear earlier may have more value (or if early oil drums on your side appear closer to your start location than oil drums on the enemy side to their start locations).

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Re: Remove random oil drums?

Post by Iluvalar » 28 Dec 2012, 18:55

That could be irrelevant with a better oil apparition dynamic. 1 oil drum per 100 tiles per minute on a free spot (for exemple). Instead of the actual mess : A maximum of 5 drums in bunch, once in a blue moon IF a player took the previous one IF it didn't tried to appear on a feature.
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