Power #4 Paranoia

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zydonk
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Power #4 Paranoia

Post by zydonk » 16 Jul 2012, 12:47

Here is the text of a pm I received. You may or may not know what it is about – if only because all the topics and posts referred to have been arbitrarily removed from the forum.

[Quote]
Re: Power #3
Sent: Yesterday, 02:02
From: Staff
To: zydonk
zydonk wrote:New topic "Power #2" and initial post ( in Web Discussion section) held back for "Examination". Will that happen to this post too?

Looks as though WZ Dev is in its end game...

Once again, stop recreating topics that have been already locked.
If you have a problem with something, then tell us.
[end quote]

A topic concerning an mp “World Tournament” was suddenly suspended without a reasonable explanation. A new topic was started to ask why this had happened, to which I added my voice. As happens on forums, the ensuing discussion ranged widely on and off topic. Then a post which began which “Cease and desist” pretty well shut down the topic, again without a reasonable explanation, either for shutting down this topic or for the suspension of the World Tournament topic.

I then started a new topic, entitled “Power”, which drew attention to the change of tone in the moderation of the forum and wondered why it was happening. A very lively discussion ensued – mostly on topic this time – but this topic was locked in less than 24 hours, and again without any explanation.

I started topic “Power #2” – referred to in the pm above – which asked if locking an active topic so quickly was unusual. As this was held back for “Examination”, I then started a new topic in the Discussion Section, entitled Power #3. The initial post is quoted above. When I found that it had loaded immediately, I followed it up with a second post repeating the text of the “Power #2” post, hoping in this way to circumvent what seemed an attempt at censorship.

I notice this morning that all the topics I refer to here have been removed from the forum. Goodness knows what else has been “cleaned” out.

So, what is the problem? I’ll tell you. Did the forum have a Moderator before Lav Coyote took on the job a couple of years ago? If there was one, he must have kept a very low profile because I don’t remember anyone here being rebuked and threatened in the way that seems to have become the norm in the last year or so. More, I knew who Lav was and could sense the pressure he was under, but this “Staff” moniker is apparently just a front that allows any bullyboy who wants to to throw his weight about without responsibility. Not good for anyone involved. And certainly not good for the forum.
Why is happening? There is the truism that power corrupts. This was coined by a complacent Englishman who should (and probably did) know better – in fact he was just slagging off the French (as usual). Power can be good – magnanimous and generous – when it is confident, but it is bad when it loses confidence in itself. Tyranny is always a sign of failure.

So what is the failure here? Version 2.3.9 is the latest stable version of WZ2100 and yet no support is offered for it. The present candidate 3.1, has been through a long series of betas that seem to be correcting smaller and smaller problems, while large problems (esp the render) that make the game almost unplayable are ignored. WZ dev may just be out of control, with individual devs pushing their own specialities/agendas to the detriment of the overall game.

This happens. The basic job has been done. 2.3.9 – with a few embellishments – is probably as good as WZ will get, given its age and the limitations of its code. There is no mp heaven awaiting you – I bet most of the devs already know that.

I address Staff – whoever you are today – let the members ventilate this topic fully this time. If they think it nonsense they will say so, without you having to decide for them. That’s a better way to run this forum.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by NoQ » 16 Jul 2012, 12:59

I don’t remember
You're simply very very lucky.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 13:20

.

Power is simply defined as "the ability to cause or prevent change."

That is a neutral statement. It is in the excercise of power, and its consequences, that the good and the bad, the competent and incompetent, the mature and immature, are revealed.

I took the time to write a series of cogent posts to the deleated threads, as did others. The deleation was a metaphorical smack of blatant disrespect in the face to those individuals engaged in civil discourse - and rational communication itself.

My approach all along to this subject has been with the clear mindset of what is defined as analytic journalism. This is part of the what has come to be known as the Fourth Estate. There is a history of those who cannot abide the Fourth Estate. There are lessons to be learned but only if you acknowledge fallibility and disavow the grandiosity of omniscience and omnipotence. Short of that this is just an other excercise in futility.

.
.

Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
Trust
Echo
.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by iap » 16 Jul 2012, 13:35

Rman, please please write the last sentence again in simpler words! I promise to learn enough English to somehow understand you without wikipedia and google translate (because they can't help me in your case)

(And do it fast before this thread will be locked too)

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 13:47

iap wrote:Rman, please please write the last sentence again in simpler words! I promise to learn enough English to somehow understand you without wikipedia and google translate (because they can't help me in your case)

(And do it fast before this thread will be locked too)
This one:
There are lessons to be learned but only if you acknowledge fallibility and disavow the grandiosity of omniscience and omnipotence. Short of that this is just an other excercise in futility.
You can only learn and grow more effective in the excercise of power if you don't think yourself all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with.
.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by cybersphinx » 16 Jul 2012, 14:16

So what is the failure here? Version 2.3.9 is the latest stable version of WZ2100 and yet no support is offered for it.
Well, before writing that into the 3.1 announcements, the 2.3 branch has been basically dead for a few months already. Basically, none of the "official" devs cared, and nobody else has since made a convincing effort that would allow us to confidently let them take over 2.3. Remember that every official Warzone release gets many thousands of downloads from Sourceforge only, and then is included in various Linux distributions, software download sites etc.
The present candidate 3.1, has been through a long series of betas that seem to be correcting smaller and smaller problems, while large problems (esp the render) that make the game almost unplayable are ignored.
If we tried to fix every problem before releasing 3.1 that'd only draw out the period without a release declared as stable, probably by years. The followup releases to 3.1 will hopefully come much faster and improve things step by step. Will the final 3.1 be a worthy successor to 2.3.9? I don't know. But it hopefully is the first step to getting one.
I address Staff – whoever you are today
Just for the record, I've never used the staff account.
We want information... information... information.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by iap » 16 Jul 2012, 15:11

Rman Virgil wrote:
There are lessons to be learned but only if you acknowledge fallibility and disavow the grandiosity of omniscience and omnipotence. Short of that this is just an other excercise in futility.
You can only learn and grow more effective in the excercise of power if you don't think yourself all-knowing and all-powerful to begin with.
.
I see it now!!!
The present candidate 3.1, has been through a long series of betas that seem to be correcting smaller and smaller problems, while large problems (esp the render) that make the game almost unplayable are ignored.
Although I Sympathize with the concept of this thread, I can't agree with this. You can't complain about the development speed of an open source project. All you can do is develop things by yourself, or contribute in other ways. You can ask, suggest, analyze, document, test or even make comic strips but never complain.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by JDW » 16 Jul 2012, 16:36

Apparently someone on IRC is campaigning for some sort of protest on this particular thread,
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] --> Guest28371 has joined this channel (183b3ba3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.59.59.163).
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <-- Guest28371 has left this server (Client Quit).
Note: A certain name replaced by <Staff> .
"Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
-- Ambrose Bierce

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by NoQ » 16 Jul 2012, 17:20

Spoiler:
He wanted to make us say something like that, right? :?
Although I Sympathize with the concept of this thread, I can't agree with this. You can't complain about the development speed of an open source project. All you can do is develop things by yourself, or contribute in other ways. You can ask, suggest, analyze, document, test or even make comic strips but never complain.
Probably one of the aspects of this is that we can't expect developers to do a moderator's work properly. It would take quite some time to properly explain all sides of the problem, and it's not obvious that it's worth it. Developers work on what they are interested in; they can't work on anything else, and we can't ask them for that.

Inspiration is the keyword here; and that's something that magically appears and disappears without our will.

That is the only (and the complete) explanation of why 3.1 is the way it is, and why 2.3 was frozen. If there were at least one developer inspired to support 2.3, it would have been supported. There is nothing that stops it from being supported, apart from that.

What i'm trying to say is that game development direction has absolutely nothing to do with totalitarism. Explaining it as a pure play of inspiration is much easier and clearer than putting up some conspiracy theory.

And i'm pretty sure that cleaning up this mess doesn't add to the developers' inspiration. So boys, please stop it. You are only making things worse. The game will never get better if you made this sort of a thread. All you "protesters" (if there's more than one of you), try doing something. Come up with a fork that is according to your desires. Nobody can forbid that. I'd welcome that wholeheartedly. I'm sure most of the developers will welcome that. But all you do so far is whine. Whining is listened to, sure, when it's on topic. This one isn't.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 17:25

JDW wrote:Apparently someone on IRC is campaigning for some sort of protest on this particular thread,
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] --> Guest28371 has joined this channel (183b3ba3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.59.59.163).
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <Guest28371> Protest the Totalitarianism of <Staff> here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9778
[07/16/12 5:06 pm] <-- Guest28371 has left this server (Client Quit).
Note: A certain name replaced by <Staff> .
Hmm. Don't do IRC. Ain't me.

Protesting these days seems to be carried foward through demagoguery and violent divisiveness which is not something I would advocate.
"Throwing out the baby with the bath water."

"It's my way or the highway."
These express the irrationality of much protest demagoguery and I would have nothing to do with any such effort.

My posture is resistence through reason, wit, grace and the communication techniques of analytic journalism. If none of that moves the public interaction foward in a rational and mutually satisfying manner then I will forego postings and simply use PMs to communicate constructively with those whose WZ work and sense of fairness I esteem. There's only one thing in life you cannot make up for once it's lost and that's time. Anything that would steal time from me is something I will not let happen. Deleteing my cogent posts is such a theft of my time.

===========>
I see it now!!!
I said the same thing some 4+ decades ago after suffering early set-backs and out 'n out failures in my first professional position of power over others. It was then I truely could appreciate the counsel of one of my mentors, a man who had been dead some 2500 years. Among many other pearls of insight into the human condition, he said:
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”

"The unexamined life is not worth living.”

― Socrates
=============>

As for changes to WZ gameplay that I was passionate about - I made them myself over the years to thoroughly satisfy my curiosity. Never needed the developers to that. Just took the time to share the results of my own efforts in the spirit of intellectual engagement and nothing more. When there was overlap I acknowledged constructively. When there wasn't overlap I simply went about my own business. I value mutually rewarding collaboration where it arises but where it does not, I'm completely at ease with self-sufficiency.

.
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 16 Jul 2012, 17:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Giani » 16 Jul 2012, 17:39

zydonk wrote: So what is the failure here? Version 2.3.9 is the latest stable version of WZ2100 and yet no support is offered for it. The present candidate 3.1, has been through a long series of betas that seem to be correcting smaller and smaller problems, while large problems (esp the render) that make the game almost unplayable are ignored. WZ dev may just be out of control, with individual devs pushing their own specialities/agendas to the detriment of the overall game.

This happens. The basic job has been done. 2.3.9 – with a few embellishments – is probably as good as WZ will get, given its age and the limitations of its code. There is no mp heaven awaiting you – I bet most of the devs already know that.

I address Staff – whoever you are today – let the members ventilate this topic fully this time. If they think it nonsense they will say so, without you having to decide for them. That’s a better way to run this forum.
Shouldn't you make a new topic for that?
And devs don't fix small problems of 3.1, check the changelogs and tickets.
My maps: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9501

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by NoQ » 16 Jul 2012, 17:56

Bigger problems will surely take more time to fix (: Pathfinding / droid flow problem must certainly be of a lot of curiosity, i'm sure they will have a look at it. I don't see any other major problems in 3.1 right now, since the cliff textures have been pushed (they may still require minor tweaking), and the power/payment system has been fixed. Probably shooting through structures requires having a look too. Anything else?

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 16 Jul 2012, 18:22

I fear that someone's going to be banned or suspended soon...

Anyways, if anyone doesn't like how the site is being run, then you may want to go find some other site to go to (or create one yourself). (You're welcome to move to the new Wikizone 2100 wiki, or to Aubergine's Warzone 2100 website.) I've personally seen my fair share of mods and admins that I've disagreed with, including those that I felt abused their powers, and my response to that was to just leave and never return, not wanting to associate myself with such people ever again. (I personally don't wish to leave this site, nor do I have any grudges against anyone in power on the site, though if I did, then I'd have already left without causing enough of a ruckus to get myself banned.)
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Paul » 16 Jul 2012, 19:20

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:I fear that someone's going to be banned or suspended soon...

Anyways, if anyone doesn't like how the site is being run, then you may want to go find some other site to go to (or create one yourself). (You're welcome to move to the new Wikizone 2100 wiki, or to Aubergine's Warzone 2100 website.) I've personally seen my fair share of mods and admins that I've disagreed with, including those that I felt abused their powers, and my response to that was to just leave and never return, not wanting to associate myself with such people ever again. (I personally don't wish to leave this site, nor do I have any grudges against anyone in power on the site, though if I did, then I'd have already left without causing enough of a ruckus to get myself banned.)
They are clearly flaunting the rules so this is a clear cut case of wanting to get banned.
cybersphinx wrote:
I address Staff – whoever you are today
Just for the record, I've never used the staff account.
You have moderator powers so why is this thread still here? It breaks a few rules that have been posted and yet it remains. :hmm: By this lack of a response and the other response you have had before in the other thread it looks like you want to cause more problems not less. The only remaining thing to speculate on is your motivation for not following your own forum rules. :hmm: Either they apply to everyone or nobody.
Rules:
Respect other members. Be nice. Trolling, flamebait, and personal attacks will be removed.

It isn't nice to mess with the forums.

Don't bypass moderator's decisions about content control.

Don't start a new thread to bypass thread closures.

It is also bad etiquette to quote pms unless both parties agreed.
Last edited by Paul on 16 Jul 2012, 21:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 21:07

.

With that last clarification we have the beginings of a rational protocol.

The first 2 questions I would ask are these:

~ Is use of the word "power" in the subject heading forevermore a violation?

~ Is discussing the subject of "power" only allowable if it refers to WZ GPMs and not allowable if there is any reference to its excercise as a function of policy enforcement?

Are those not simple, rationale, reasonable questions to start?

.

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