What defines Warzone?

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by zydonk » 02 Jan 2012, 12:00

lav_coyote25 wrote:
zydonk wrote:Ah. ML - the original "Girl I left behind" poster, which graces all the dating sites...
huh??? explain. please.
Look at the pic - just a nice girl waiting for some towser to come home again - but Bright Lights Big City and he comes out gay and its disco disco after that. And the nice girl sits in her dark little parlour and waits and waits...
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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Chojun » 03 Jan 2012, 07:51

LOL :lol2:

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by lav_coyote25 » 04 Jan 2012, 03:02

i am sorry, but , how exactly does this pic define warzone 2100? perhaps i am too old, or ... whatever... is funny yes, but i dont believe this has any bearing on the subject at hand... perhaps i need to look at it some other way, like maybe stand on my head... dunno... :hmm:

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Berg » 04 Jan 2012, 08:17

lav_coyote25 wrote: like maybe stand on my head... dunno... :hmm:
Dont do that bits will fall out and you wont be completely what you used to be...


Question what defines warzone ...all the things that make it unique ...the bad power system the bad graphics the horrid research system and the lame low oil maps ...all these things ARE warzone these are the mainstay of the game how it is still growing ..sure add better textures models or even a better 3d engine but dont change the feel and play of the game ...

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by zydonk » 04 Jan 2012, 11:53

lav_coyote25 wrote:i am sorry, but , how exactly does this pic define warzone 2100? perhaps i am too old, or ... whatever... is funny yes, but i dont believe this has any bearing on the subject at hand... perhaps i need to look at it some other way, like maybe stand on my head... dunno... :hmm:
You need to ask RV. He knows...

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by lav_coyote25 » 04 Jan 2012, 22:14

zydonk wrote:
lav_coyote25 wrote:i am sorry, but , how exactly does this pic define warzone 2100? perhaps i am too old, or ... whatever... is funny yes, but i dont believe this has any bearing on the subject at hand... perhaps i need to look at it some other way, like maybe stand on my head... dunno... :hmm:
You need to ask RV. He knows...
ok, i have re-read all this thread. your going to have to point out the exact place where RV said something to effect this going off topic bit. i still can not see where your going with this. :stressed:

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by zydonk » 05 Jan 2012, 12:06

Rman Virgil wrote:.
zydonk wrote:For me, WZ v110 is more like a work of art. Speaking from experience, you work with ideas and materials and things fall into place. It's not perfect, but the overall effect is just-so. Take any good painting, novel or film - you can easily diss it for the bits that don't seem to fit, but it is almost impossible to show just why the work is so good. It's like the quality of the work is given.

I've played WZ since '99 and never bothered myself with what was wrong with it (except for the stupid trucks, of course). I simply enjoy playing it and I like finding over and over again how much I like it, just like any good book or film (movie).

I suspect many people are haunted by the idea of the perfect machine - all its parts fitting - but the artist is more concerned with something like beauty, that can appear despite the imperfection of the vehicle of expression.
I feel ya on most of that and, in the spirit of creating and artistry in all forms & mediums, I also recall the following....
"A poem is never finished, only abandoned." ~ Paul Valery.
“Where I to await perfection, my book would never be finished.” ~ Chinese Proverb.
In both above cases, I would expand: "Abandoned to & submitted for publication." Which is to say, you either keep it to yourself for life or go public and move on to other works. The following historical anecdote speaks to this dramatically.

The great Leonardo da Vinci as a young man painting the Mona Lisa then carrying the canvas with him where ever his travels took him throughout Europe, for decades; constantly working on it and, in the twilight of his life, found on an easel at his bedside when he died an old man, perhaps wishing he had more time to finish it.

- Regards, Rman. :hmm:

.

RV's very words. On message?

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Rman Virgil » 08 Jan 2012, 19:21

zydonk wrote:For me, WZ v110 is more like a work of art. Speaking from experience, you work with ideas and materials and things fall into place. It's not perfect, but the overall effect is just-so. Take any good painting, novel or film - you can easily diss it for the bits that don't seem to fit, but it is almost impossible to show just why the work is so good. It's like the quality of the work is given.

I've played WZ since '99 and never bothered myself with what was wrong with it (except for the stupid trucks, of course). I simply enjoy playing it and I like finding over and over again how much I like it, just like any good book or film (movie).

I suspect many people are haunted by the idea of the perfect machine - all its parts fitting - but the artist is more concerned with something like beauty, that can appear despite the imperfection of the vehicle of expression..
Rman Virgil wrote:I feel ya on most of that and, in the spirit of creating and artistry in all forms & mediums, I also recall the following....
"A poem is never finished, only abandoned." ~ Paul Valery.
“Where I to await perfection, my book would never be finished.” ~ Chinese Proverb.
In both above cases, I would expand: "Abandoned to & submitted for publication." Which is to say, you either keep it to yourself for life or go public and move on to other works. The following historical anecdote speaks to this dramatically.

The great Leonardo da Vinci as a young man painting the Mona Lisa then carrying the canvas with him where ever his travels took him throughout Europe, for decades; constantly working on it and, in the twilight of his life, found on an easel at his bedside when he died an old man, perhaps wishing he had more time to finish it.

- Regards, Rman. :hmm:

.
zydonk wrote:RV's very words. On message?

I believe it's on message to Per's thread question "What define's WZ ?" and also zydonk's reference to WZ as an imperfect work of art.

Here's my thinking.

Some core Pumpkin developers (aka "Warzone Creators" as they referred to themselves collectively) expressed they deeply felt WZ 2100 to be their RTS masterpiece (itself implying a work of art) and that it would be through a process of perfecting (AFTER Retail release) over open-ended time, and with input from the game's fan base, that this masterpiece, this work of art, would evolve. :hmm:

Up until that time (1998-1999) NO other developer in the young history of vid-comp gaming had approached their game development creation in exactly this way. As such, this very methodology of developing WZ 2100 was a defining watershed, and singular innovation, in the gaming community at large. Ergo, this all merits articulation as a defining legacy of the game's on going existence itself, IMHO. :wink:

Many of those criteria vividly fit Leonardo Da Vinci, his relationship to his masterpiece the "Mona Lisa" and those who supported his artistic creation.

Hope this answer provides the connective tissue for relevance and lucidity. :3

- Regards, Rman. 8)

.

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by lav_coyote25 » 08 Jan 2012, 22:24

finally. thanks! now i understand. :dash1:

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Navvarr » 08 Jan 2012, 23:11

For me, Warzone is like chess.

You start off with a level playing field- you can choose to play defensively, or offensively. Tactically, you build up your moves, aim for certain advantages and then you make your move- checkmate- either for you, or for the other player.

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by zydonk » 09 Jan 2012, 12:14

Rman Virgil wrote:
zydonk wrote:For me, WZ v110 is more like a work of art. Speaking from experience, you work with ideas and materials and things fall into place. It's not perfect, but the overall effect is just-so. Take any good painting, novel or film - you can easily diss it for the bits that don't seem to fit, but it is almost impossible to show just why the work is so good. It's like the quality of the work is given.

I've played WZ since '99 and never bothered myself with what was wrong with it (except for the stupid trucks, of course). I simply enjoy playing it and I like finding over and over again how much I like it, just like any good book or film (movie).

I suspect many people are haunted by the idea of the perfect machine - all its parts fitting - but the artist is more concerned with something like beauty, that can appear despite the imperfection of the vehicle of expression..
Rman Virgil wrote:I feel ya on most of that and, in the spirit of creating and artistry in all forms & mediums, I also recall the following....
"A poem is never finished, only abandoned." ~ Paul Valery.
“Where I to await perfection, my book would never be finished.” ~ Chinese Proverb.
In both above cases, I would expand: "Abandoned to & submitted for publication." Which is to say, you either keep it to yourself for life or go public and move on to other works. The following historical anecdote speaks to this dramatically.

The great Leonardo da Vinci as a young man painting the Mona Lisa then carrying the canvas with him where ever his travels took him throughout Europe, for decades; constantly working on it and, in the twilight of his life, found on an easel at his bedside when he died an old man, perhaps wishing he had more time to finish it.

- Regards, Rman. :hmm:

.
zydonk wrote:RV's very words. On message?

I believe it's on message to Per's thread question "What define's WZ ?" and also zydonk's reference to WZ as an imperfect work of art.

Here's my thinking.

Some core Pumpkin developers (aka "Warzone Creators" as they referred to themselves collectively) expressed they deeply felt WZ 2100 to be their RTS masterpiece (itself implying a work of art) and that it would be through a process of perfecting (AFTER Retail release) over open-ended time, and with input from the game's fan base, that this masterpiece, this work of art, would evolve. :hmm:

Up until that time (1998-1999) NO other developer in the young history of vid-comp gaming had approached their game development creation in exactly this way. As such, this very methodology of developing WZ 2100 was a defining watershed, and singular innovation, in the gaming community at large. Ergo, this all merits articulation as a defining legacy of the game's on going existence itself, IMHO. :wink:

Many of those criteria vividly fit Leonardo Da Vinci, his relationship to his masterpiece the "Mona Lisa" and those who supported his artistic creation.

Hope this answer provides the connective tissue for relevance and lucidity. :3

- Regards, Rman. 8)

.
Richard Garriott's Ultima IX Ascension is another example of a game that was conceived in artistic terms, and it has been properly described as a masterpiece. While Ultima IX led to Morrowind (perhaps the most truly artistic game created so far) and in turn Stalker, WZ has had no successor. RTS remains formulaic. In fact, it is arguable that it is moribund, mainly because it never grasped the real challenge of AI development, rather than just adding more and more tanks etc.

And my point, RV, about ML is that an incomplete work is not art. You can get away with daubing in classical art, but without the final decision of the artist, there is no art-work. But there are accidents, where "circumstances" decide for the artist that the work is complete.

Except for perhaps rebalancing some heavy weapons, eg laser, and trucks not being totally stupid muppets, WZ is probably as good as it gets. The proof is in the playing.

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by effigy » 09 Jan 2012, 14:29

zydonk wrote:...
Except for perhaps rebalancing some heavy weapons, eg laser, and trucks not being totally stupid muppets, WZ is probably as good as it gets. The proof is in the playing.
Where have you found imbalance with lasers?
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2012, 15:18

.

As fascinating, zydonk, as the subject of art is, and as much as I'm inclined to speak to it at length, I'm also mindful of not high-jacking this thread.

So I will respond in brief for two reasons. First out of good conversational form and second because we have been bandying the word "art" here while correlating it to WZ 2100 as being as much a part of the game's fundamental, defining, character as anything typically discussed under the heading of GPMs.

Art has been an intimate part of my life beginning in the womb, literally, and throughout as both appreciator and practitioner of various forms, including for pay.

It never occurred to me to define it in words for discussion or validate it as such until I came across the following at the age of 12:
"Art is the selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgments." - A. Rand
The Wikipedia article does a very good job, IMHO, of defining art, based on my lifetime first hand experience:
"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. It encompasses a diverse range of human activities, creations, and modes of expression, including music, literature, film, photography, sculpture, and paintings. The meaning of art is explored in a branch of philosophy known as aesthetics, whereas disciplines such as anthropology, sociology and psychology analyze its relationship with humans and generations.

Traditionally, the term art was used to refer to any skill or mastery. This conception changed during the Romantic period, when art came to be seen as "a special faculty of the human mind to be classified with religion and science".[1]

Generally, art is made with the intention of stimulating thoughts and emotions."
Full source article can be found: HERE

And my own definition in this context:
Vid-comp games are an emerging electronic art form that is uniquely characterized by its inter-disciplinary, collaborative, creation and the interactive, generative, experience between the dynamic artifact itself and those who engage it as appreciators.
- Regards, Rman. :hmm:

.

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by zydonk » 10 Jan 2012, 12:00

effigy wrote:
zydonk wrote:...
Except for perhaps rebalancing some heavy weapons, eg laser, and trucks not being totally stupid muppets, WZ is probably as good as it gets. The proof is in the playing.
Where have you found imbalance with lasers?
Sorry, badly phrased. Except for the need to rebalance etc

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Re: What defines Warzone?

Post by Chojun » 10 Jan 2012, 21:17

effigy wrote:
zydonk wrote:...
Except for perhaps rebalancing some heavy weapons, eg laser, and trucks not being totally stupid muppets, WZ is probably as good as it gets. The proof is in the playing.
Where have you found imbalance with lasers?
It's game-over as soon as pulse lasers are researched and deployed.

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