Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

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Chojun
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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Chojun » 16 Jan 2011, 21:45

Per wrote:You can't please everyone. Chojun, can you say some more about what you did to the power system in regards to balancing?
Per,

I just went through the revision history. The changes are as follows:

* Effectively doubles [per-cycle] power output
* Power penalties are only enforced after 5 mins game time
* A player's power levels are limited to 2000 per generator.

Essentially, these simple changes have the following effects:

Higher strategic importance of power generators. If your generators are destroyed, your maximum amount of power goes down, and you lose power every cycle.
Players must have very large bases if they want to have a lot of power on reserve
Players can no-longer have obscene amounts of power available to them

These are just a few of the effects of the changes I made to power. But I don't think that this resolves the gameplay problems with Warzone's power. I think the topic of power needs to be revisited and some Gameplay Mechanics drawn up that make sense. For example, Warzone offers Low/Normal/High power settings. But the power setting really only slows or speeds the gameplay and the game is already a VERY long game as it is (I know 2-3 Hr games can be possible if turtling players are playing). I think the ideal game time for the Warzone community would be in the realm of 30-60 mins. Power is a factor in that equation.

Warzone has also seen its fair share of High-oil maps that are similar to the "Big Game Hunters" maps of the starcraft era. This gives rise to the need for players to be able to construct multiple hundreds of units in order to make their attack (and conversely, construct multiple hundreds of artillery and hardpoints to make their defense). This kind of thing turns the game into an attrition/slugfest that I don't think was intended by Pumpkin. Raising the unit limit was one of the very first things done when the source was released and it is one of the things that I disagreed with the most.
Strategy by Design
My whole point is that high power (and other power problems) favors a game where the person with the biggest club is the person that wins the game. In 1999 Pumpkin departed from the conventional RTS wisdom at the time by removing resources as a strategic element so that players could focus on the combat strategy elements of the game. However, the power system they implemented doesn't quite meet that goal because it is either hinders game speed or gives way to wars of attrition.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Per » 17 Jan 2011, 00:47

Chojun, I agree completely with your basic sentiment. Not sure if the power changes you suggested would achieve the goal, but we should definitely find ways to make multiplayer games faster and more interactive, and less like playing Simcity until a Clash of the Titans ends the game in a few seconds worth of combat. Or after hours watching your base being slowly eaten by encroaching artillery.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by BunkerBlaster » 19 Jan 2011, 11:54

icyflames wrote:After my first few games in the new lobby (which to my surprise is awesomely well-populated), I've realised that most people playing wz play these ridiculous high-oil, flat, anti-rush maps.
I agree with you to a certain extent, but that is their choice, everyone has different preferences as to oil, power, vtols, arty, tanks, cyborgs etc. Join games with maps that you like, or host your own games with the power level at low, medium or high to your preference. As far as the thread title UNLIMITED POWER, there is no unlimited power. There was a change not to long ago that caps the power at a certain amount.
As far as the quantity of oil deriks, 20 oil deriks is a high oil game. Especially if high power level is selected. The idea of increasing the amount of oil deriks per player was for teamplay. This gives the opportunity to try to keep teams balanced if teams become unequal. If a player on your team exits the game you can grab his oil and try to keep playing a balanced game even though game is now 1v2 or 2v3 or whatever, both teams would have the same amount of oil irregardless of number of players. As a result a few of the MAP MAKERS started making maps with the maximum oil deriks per base, which was not the intention of the change.
Chojun wrote:I think the ideal game time for the Warzone community would be in the realm of 30-60 mins.
You cannot get to the end of the research tree in that amount of time. What exactly are you proposing?

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by abbas12 » 19 Jan 2011, 22:52

BunkerBlaster wrote:he idea of increasing the amount of oil deriks per player was for teamplay. This gives the opportunity to try to keep teams balanced if teams become unequal. If a player on your team exits the game you can grab his oil and try to keep playing a balanced game even though game is now 1v2 or 2v3 or whatever, both teams would have the same amount of oil irregardless of number of players. As a result a few of the MAP MAKERS started making maps with the maximum oil deriks per base, which was not the intention of the change.
completely false -- the maximum usable derricks is currently set at 40, though i have a feeling this is not permanent.. thus you can't use your ally's derricks since you're already maxed out.
Per wrote:... we should definitely find ways to make multiplayer games faster and more interactive ...
  1. slightly increase unit speeds
  2. improve pathfinding
  3. better map format enabling more intricate and strategic maps
  4. ""real"" multiplayer rankings
  5. enable players to set game speed (i.e. 50%, 100%, 150%, ..) in game settings
  6. derrick upgrades which increase oil count and defensibility for a cost
info's out there if you're willing to listen..

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Chojun » 20 Jan 2011, 02:59

BunkerBlaster wrote:
Chojun wrote:I think the ideal game time for the Warzone community would be in the realm of 30-60 mins.
You cannot get to the end of the research tree in that amount of time. What exactly are you proposing?
Does one need to reach the end of the tech tree before he mounts his attack in this game? I think 30-60 mins is more than enough time to thoroughly research 1-2 major weapon trees (eg, cannons/rockets/etc) plus 1 or 2 other sub-trees.

The simple fact of the matter is that players aren't always able to block out 2-3 hours (or more) of their day to play a game.
Last edited by Chojun on 20 Jan 2011, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by BunkerBlaster » 20 Jan 2011, 03:44

abbas12 wrote: completely false -- the maximum usable derricks is currently set at 40, though i have a feeling this is not permanent.. thus you can't use your ally's derricks since you're already maxed out.
Umm no. Maximum oil was not always 40 per base. For many years people complained when players exit the game because they could not access the unused oil because they were maxed out at 20 or 30, whatever the limit was at the time. For many years teamwar was the most played map with 20 oil per base. All we wanted was to be able to get more oil when a player left the game so that each team would still have 80 oil.

You say you cant get ally's derricks because your maxed out. Then play maps with less oil in base, they are more balanced games.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by BunkerBlaster » 20 Jan 2011, 03:53

Chojun wrote:Does one need to reach the end of the tech tree before he mounts his attack in this game? I think 30-60 mins is more than enough time to thoroughly research 1-2 major weapon trees (eg, cannons/rockets/etc) plus 1 or 2 other sub-trees.
How many players and what maps are you playing? Games I play have constant battle from beginning to end. If a game goes over 45 min it is rare and somewhat cherished. Don't understand your perspective.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by abbas12 » 20 Jan 2011, 04:11

Chojun wrote:The simple fact of the matter is that players aren't always able to block out 2-3 hours (or more) of their day to play a game.
in general: smaller maps -> shorter games

BunkerBlaster wrote:
abbas12 wrote:....
Umm no. Maximum oil was not always 40 per base. For many years people complained when players exit the game because they could not access the unused oil because they were maxed out at 20 or 30, whatever the limit was at the time. For many years teamwar was the most played map with 20 oil per base. All we wanted was to be able to get more oil when a player left the game so that each team would still have 80 oil.

You say you cant get ally's derricks because your maxed out. Then play maps with less oil in base, they are more balanced games.
did you even read what i said? the maximum ***usable*** oil has been 40 for quite a while, and had you read what i had written, you would remember that you cannot build more than 10 power generators. you can build 120 or 160 derricks or whatever youre babbling on about, but it won't make any difference.

these huge maps with near-limitless power are ridiculous and exist for the drooling groundling masses anyway.. so it's not really a valid part of the discussion.

if people don't want to play super-long games, they should play a smaller map. warzone is balanced nicely to favor offensive strategies. ifsmall games are taking 3 hours then youre doing it wrong.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by BunkerBlaster » 20 Jan 2011, 11:28

abbas12 wrote:did you even read what i said?
Yes :)
abbas12 wrote:the maximum ***usable*** oil has been 40 for quite a while, and had you read what i had written, you would remember that you cannot build more than 10 power generators. you can build 120 or 160 derricks or whatever youre babbling on about, but it won't make any difference.
Nope no babbling here. If your read again I said each team. Each team would mean 40 generators. That means its feasable 2 people (20 power generators) could utilize all the oil on their side of the above mentioned map if needed.
abbas12 wrote:these huge maps with near-limitless power are ridiculous and exist for the drooling groundling masses anyway.. so it's not really a valid part of the discussion.
How can you say that? Are you still talking about starcraft? Here is the quote from the very first post of this thread.
icyflames wrote:I've realised that most people playing wz play these ridiculous high-oil, flat, anti-rush maps.
abbas12 wrote:if people don't want to play super-long games, they should play a smaller map. warzone is balanced nicely to favor offensive strategies. ifsmall games are taking 3 hours then youre doing it wrong.
Here your talking about a topic in the middle of the thread pertaining to wz2200 which this is not, but I will bite. Yes smaller maps have shorter game time and is a good suggestion. As far as doing it wrong you are assuming. Their are other factors besides map size. In the 12 years or so I've played this game there has been very few games go past 45 min. The ones that did were the best and most memorable games. Warzone 2100 was rebalanced which did correct some turtling as far as arty. As far as those types of players that just build I love them, gives me that much more to attack. Vtols, I love to see them explode with my AA. Arty easily taken out. But that is me. I love every aspect of the game, anywhere starting from 4 to 30 oil per base. Then there are some that don't. They want to remove certain aspects of the game or they want everyone to play like them. Its always been that way. Yes the post your refering to caught my attention also because in the 11 or 12 years I've played this game there is only one multiplayer game that lasted that long with any version of Warzone 2100. On the other hand decreasing game time does interest me. But the reasoning behind it IMO is invalid. I still have the original cd which does play a little faster even on a old computer. So a little boost in game speed would not hurt as long as it does not penalize a certain type of player.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Defacto » 21 Jan 2011, 20:49

BunkerBlaster wrote:
abbas12 wrote:did you even read what i said?
Yes :)
abbas12 wrote:the maximum ***usable*** oil has been 40 for quite a while, and had you read what i had written, you would remember that you cannot build more than 10 power generators. you can build 120 or 160 derricks or whatever youre babbling on about, but it won't make any difference.
Nope no babbling here. If your read again I said each team. Each team would mean 40 generators. That means its feasable 2 people (20 power generators) could utilize all the oil on their side of the above mentioned map if needed.
abbas12 wrote:these huge maps with near-limitless power are ridiculous and exist for the drooling groundling masses anyway.. so it's not really a valid part of the discussion.
How can you say that? Are you still talking about starcraft? Here is the quote from the very first post of this thread.
icyflames wrote:I've realised that most people playing wz play these ridiculous high-oil, flat, anti-rush maps.
abbas12 wrote:if people don't want to play super-long games, they should play a smaller map. warzone is balanced nicely to favor offensive strategies. ifsmall games are taking 3 hours then youre doing it wrong.
Here your talking about a topic in the middle of the thread pertaining to wz2200 which this is not, but I will bite. Yes smaller maps have shorter game time and is a good suggestion. As far as doing it wrong you are assuming. Their are other factors besides map size. In the 12 years or so I've played this game there has been very few games go past 45 min. The ones that did were the best and most memorable games. Warzone 2100 was rebalanced which did correct some turtling as far as arty. As far as those types of players that just build I love them, gives me that much more to attack. Vtols, I love to see them explode with my AA. Arty easily taken out. But that is me. I love every aspect of the game, anywhere starting from 4 to 30 oil per base. Then there are some that don't. They want to remove certain aspects of the game or they want everyone to play like them. Its always been that way. Yes the post your refering to caught my attention also because in the 11 or 12 years I've played this game there is only one multiplayer game that lasted that long with any version of Warzone 2100. On the other hand decreasing game time does interest me. But the reasoning behind it IMO is invalid. I still have the original cd which does play a little faster even on a old computer. So a little boost in game speed would not hurt as long as it does not penalize a certain type of player.
Well spoken :D :wink:
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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Chojun » 22 Jan 2011, 03:28

BunkerBlaster wrote:Here your talking about a topic in the middle of the thread pertaining to wz2200 which this is not, but I will bite. Yes smaller maps have shorter game time and is a good suggestion. As far as doing it wrong you are assuming. Their are other factors besides map size. In the 12 years or so I've played this game there has been very few games go past 45 min. The ones that did were the best and most memorable games. Warzone 2100 was rebalanced which did correct some turtling as far as arty. As far as those types of players that just build I love them, gives me that much more to attack. Vtols, I love to see them explode with my AA. Arty easily taken out. But that is me. I love every aspect of the game, anywhere starting from 4 to 30 oil per base. Then there are some that don't. They want to remove certain aspects of the game or they want everyone to play like them. Its always been that way. Yes the post your refering to caught my attention also because in the 11 or 12 years I've played this game there is only one multiplayer game that lasted that long with any version of Warzone 2100. On the other hand decreasing game time does interest me. But the reasoning behind it IMO is invalid. I still have the original cd which does play a little faster even on a old computer. So a little boost in game speed would not hurt as long as it does not penalize a certain type of player.
If what you say is true, then it sounds like it isn't much of an issue anymore. It just seems like in the older days of warzone players really liked to turtle or extreme-rush so the game was either 15 minutes or 2 hours, nothing really in-between. Of course, in games with AI players the problem was compounded by the fact that the AI could not attack decisively.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by BunkerBlaster » 23 Jan 2011, 09:33

Chojun wrote:If what you say is true, then it sounds like it isn't much of an issue anymore. It just seems like in the older days of warzone players really liked to turtle or extreme-rush so the game was either 15 minutes or 2 hours, nothing really in-between. Of course, in games with AI players the problem was compounded by the fact that the AI could not attack decisively.
I am not going to say its not an issue. If its not an issue for me that does not mean its not an issue for someone else. I play thru the lobby server, maybe your playing friends that know your strategy and every move. I don't know. I agree with the 15 minute part. Most games are around 15 min games. Playing games thru the lobby server and being able to select teams that are equally matched is something that is talked about often. I don't know why you reference 2-3 hour games without attacking, but can't help thinking you know something I don't. I'm grasping at straws here but maybe your referring to games that have vtols and laser sat command post turned off. If so thats a trap.

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