AI is cheating beyond reasonable

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meeso
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by meeso » 06 Dec 2010, 04:08

Iluvalar wrote:But if you "manually" prevent it to build stupid stuff and spend his power at stupid place... It might just spend it more on research. Get those power upgrade fast as hell and then become even deadlier in research until one of is new super tank manage to escape the blocade.

Is that possible for you ?
That't exactly what happens in fact. I played the same map again and got new observations, it seems that AI progresses in terms of power supply, research, and units, not gradually like us, but after it passes a certain threshold, perhaps a threshold of "time", it shifts all at once to a higher level of strength on all levels. When i played the last time i went soooo fast, and i succeeded in applying the blockade and invading its base before it passes that threshold that i suspect plays a role in AI power development in the game. I met the same super cyborgs again but they were not as many or as strong as they were when i attempted to invade in earlier games later in time. This time i was able to vanquish them with twin machine gun turrets and few grenadiers which fired from afar and saved themselves from counter attack. While in the first "slower" attempt, i failed to achieve that same result even though i had many more cyborgs and cobra cannon turrets in greater numbers.

Still, the question remains, how could AI be possibly that much strong when it's running only on 4 oil derricks (the ones which exist within it's base), while the human player who possesses all in all TWELVE oil derricks struggles just to maintain the blockade against counter attacks by cyborgs, lancers and anti-tank rockets, and later a horde of dragon heavy cannons which cannot be deterred?! Short answer is, AI cheating goes beyond what's reasonable here.

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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by chobibo » 06 Dec 2010, 09:19

I think it's intended because the AI can't match humans, I mean the AI just follows a pre-determined build order and a simplistic way of defending and attacking enemies.

In warzone2100 skirmish, you won't see an AI baiting you with weak tanks into an ambush, skirmishing you with artillery before engaging your force, defending a bottleneck 300 style, air-striking vital structures(the AI does raid your derricks though). All the AI does is build a pre-determined set of defenses, build up an attack force numbering to a max of 5-8 tanks, then hope it wins. Sometimes you'll think that the AI does amass tanks but in truth it just sends multiple waves of tanks to certain areas and it accumulates when it rendezvous with its other waves of tanks and decides to invade your base.

In summary, the AI does not have any tactical capabilities yet. I might be wrong though lol.

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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by Mats » 06 Dec 2010, 18:29

What exactly are you playing these maps on? Scavs on/off bases, no bases etc?

I just played Twinnyhill, low power, no bases, scavs on AI on hardest. Put up a few MG bunkers to protect derricks, researched medium cannon as fast as possible along with power upgrades. Upgraded cannons/vehicle bodies while producing constantly medium cannon python hover. Rushed enemy at 30 min exactly and won after about 2 minutes without loss of a single tank. The enemy cyborgs and tanks put up very little resistance. To be honest, I probably could have rushed at about 20 minutes even though I only had about 5 tanks and would have still won.
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by meeso » 06 Dec 2010, 20:27

Mats wrote: To be honest, I probably could have rushed at about 20 minutes even though I only had about 5 tanks and would have still won.
Yes .. try to be a bit more slower rather than faster! i don't always play just to vanquish AI. i'm rather interested in how other players, especially beginners, experience the thing. and fyi, i didn't need more than twin machine guns with cobra bodies to rush AI.

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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by Mats » 06 Dec 2010, 21:17

Tought twin MGs with cobra might suffer to the scavengers. Scavengers not there, certainly would be enough. I find AI only really works 2 v 1.
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by Mats » 07 Dec 2010, 01:43

Ahhhh I see what you mean.

Twinny hill vs AI on hardest. No scavengers. Low power levels. Starting with no bases.

I had about 2/3 of map oil and rushed on about 25mins with cobra hover medium cannons (the cannons were upgraded enough that most enemy tanks died in one hit). The rush totally failed. The AI had about 30 cyborgs in base along with loads of tanks. My 20 or so tanks were wiped out and only took out about half the enemy force.

It must be said though, my cannons were ridiculously powerful! Seems the best tactic to win here (game is paused atm so I'll probably try it in a min) is to just hold the enemy off with some bunkers supported by tanks (they have taken out one single MG bunker the whole game so far) and get ahead in research. Pretty sure they would suffer very badly to long range railguns or perhaps just to a heavy cannon rush on a better body.
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by meeso » 07 Dec 2010, 04:37

Mats wrote: I had about 2/3 of map oil and rushed on about 25mins with cobra hover medium cannons (the cannons were upgraded enough that most enemy tanks died in one hit). The rush totally failed. The AI had about 30 cyborgs in base along with loads of tanks. My 20 or so tanks were wiped out and only took out about half the enemy force.
yes .. i think also that the more you wait and game time progresses, the more AI will develop harder bodies and weapons maybe faster than you. bunkers will fall if AI develops heavy cannon (try tank killer towers and have engineers keep it healthy). AI cyborgs can only be struck from afar, and i recommend you build a platoon of grenadiers and go ahead with mortar research for them to be more effective in bringing down cyborgs and other buildings within enemy base, particularly oil derricks and power generators. the problem is that AI cheats and as soon as you bring down one cyborg, another is produced instantly, and it becomes almost impossible to invade the enemy base. Please try to acquire all power resources outside enemy base, and block AI within its base from all sides, and observe how your own power supply works after that. (I think it drops down!! :augh: ) I failed to continue after AI came out of its base with a bunch of heavy cannons on tiger body. wish you good luck in managing that ;)

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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by Mats » 08 Dec 2010, 02:42

What's the trouble here though? Are you actually losing to the AI? Even on hardest, I'm beating it every time. It's not cheating beyond reasonable if it's 100% beatable!
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by lav_coyote25 » 08 Dec 2010, 04:56

just a quick question, have any one of you out there, played with the AI slider bar to as far to the left as you can go , without being turned off. if so , what happens ?? test subject - a map that i call psyko2010, 4 player , on t3. what happens? you WILL play player 0 , turn off the lazer satellite. leave all other settings as is. What happens? reason i ask is i have only noticed this behavior... and am wanting to know if, this is only just recent, or has something been changed.

the results i got , were not what i was expecting.

slider values for all players to easy. report findings please. as this is driving me infreakingsane. :annoyed: :lol2:

also - use vtols , as soon as you can get them... take out oil resources and then fly em across the burning resource ( or nonburning).

are any of the things you see , related to ai or are they related to map... strange things - not sure why. :hmm:

easy shoulld be "easy" right? medium difficulty should be that right? hard should be THAT right???? dunno.... looks like reverse to me. :lecture:
thanks to any and all that attempt this. :)
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Re: AI is cheating beyond reasonable

Post by lav_coyote25 » 08 Dec 2010, 04:58

and do use T3 please. advanced bases. full resources. and if possible either pics or AVI.... thanks.

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